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> SR3 - Ghouls, astral vision and cybereyes
Acenoid
post Jun 18 2020, 09:26 AM
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Hello!

Ghouls are dual natured beings. If the ghouls implants cybereyes to hide their true nature from others, do they lose this ability?
If a ghouls is scanned astral, does the ascanning person receives information that the target is a dual natured being, or just astral active atm, I suppose the astral body of a ghoul would look sick and mutated (dead?)


Related to the case above, if a non-ghoul full mage would implant cybereyes, would he/she retain astral vision?
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freudqo
post Jun 18 2020, 10:17 AM
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QUOTE (Acenoid @ Jun 18 2020, 10:26 AM) *
Hello!

Ghouls are dual natured beings. If the ghouls implants cybereyes to hide their true nature from others, do they lose this ability?
If a ghouls is scanned astral, does the ascanning person receives information that the target is a dual natured being, or just astral active atm, I suppose the astral body of a ghoul would look sick and mutated (dead?)


Related to the case above, if a non-ghoul full mage would implant cybereyes, would he/she retain astral vision?


On the last question: yes.

About the first question, I'm not sure I understand. The ghouls suffer from the blind flaw. Cybereyes don't correct this flaw. Their dual nature is permanent and has nothing to do with implanted cyberware. You can use cosmetic eyes if you don't want people to see you're blind I guess, but that won't change the fact of being dual natured.

About the astral scan, well, my memory is hazy there… But I'm pretty sure you might see a dual being for what it is: a dual being. As to whether you can automatically see it's a ghoul… Maybe? But definitely, the only way to hide its dual nature is using masking.

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Stahlseele
post Jun 18 2020, 02:49 PM
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Err, no . . SR3 Ghouls suffer from physical Blindness.
Perfectly fixable with Cyber-Eyes.
The Eyes have to be implanted after becoming a ghoul though.
Which means finding somebody who is wiling to do that.
Despite the rists of being eaten or being infected by the procedure.
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pbangarth
post Jun 18 2020, 03:50 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jun 18 2020, 10:49 AM) *
Despite the rists of being eaten or being infected by the procedure.


As if front-line workers don't have enough to worry about.
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freudqo
post Jun 18 2020, 04:03 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jun 18 2020, 03:49 PM) *
Err, no . . SR3 Ghouls suffer from physical Blindness.
Perfectly fixable with Cyber-Eyes.
The Eyes have to be implanted after becoming a ghoul though.
Which means finding somebody who is wiling to do that.
Despite the rists of being eaten or being infected by the procedure.


Might be my bad, but in SR3 companion, they specifically give them the blind flaw, which specifically can't be overcome by cybereyes… Though in the fluff they say ghouls do get cybereyes implanted… I guess they failed at understanding their own rules… And of course, the rules for pestilence from the critters don't match the rules for infection from the companion, because that book was one of the shittiest that you needed a lot for its fucking build point system…

I'm willing to believe it's not much harder to find a street doc that might implant cyberware in a ghoul than finding one who would do so for almost any criminals… The risk of being infected shouldn't be that big in a sterile environment…
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Stahlseele
post Jun 18 2020, 04:20 PM
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As far as i remember, there are 2 kinds of blind flaw.
One for mundanes worth 6 points.
One for magical ones for 2 points.
This is the "something wrong neurologically" in your Brain Flaw.
And the ghouls one was a special case that only made their eyes go blind which could be sorted by cyber eyes.
But it has been years and i would have to dig my books out of storage to try and be exact about this.
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bannockburn
post Jun 18 2020, 05:27 PM
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I won't comment on the issue of ghouls and cybereyes, because I might be conflating editions.

However, I am sure of two things:
1.) Yes, a dual-natured creature is immediately obvious on assensing, there's not even a test required. That is, if it is not a masked initiate, at which point the masking needs to be broken first. The same is applicable to seeing someone assense while you're assensing them (and, of course, vice versa).
2.) You do not immediately see that someone is a ghoul. However, ghoulism is a disease, and as such it can be assensed with at least 1 success (knowing that the subject has a disease), with 3 successes telling you that it's an HMHVV variant, and 5 or more successes exactly narrowing it down to the Krieger strain, although usually 3 successes and the accompanying generally visible symptoms should make it pretty easily identifiable.
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freudqo
post Jun 18 2020, 05:45 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jun 18 2020, 04:20 PM) *
As far as i remember, there are 2 kinds of blind flaw.
One for mundanes worth 6 points.
One for magical ones for 2 points.
This is the "something wrong neurologically" in your Brain Flaw.
And the ghouls one was a special case that only made their eyes go blind which could be sorted by cyber eyes.
But it has been years and i would have to dig my books out of storage to try and be exact about this.


QUOTE (SR3comp in Edges and Flaws)
Blind
Value: -6 (-2 for magically active characters)
A character with the Blind Flaw receives a +6 Target Number modifier for all visual-based tests. Cyber-replacement eyes cannot correct the Blind Flaw.


Then they say the modifier is only +2 for magically active for stuff concerning purely the physical world… And the flaw is listed in the "ghoul characteristic tables" and it's not explicated in game term that this flaw has an exception for ghoul characters. BUT, in the fluff:

QUOTE
Almot all ghouls who remain functional members of society hide their condition through a combination of perfumes (their dietary preferences give ghouls a foul body odor), plastic surgery (to alleviate their herediterary skin confition) and cybereyes (to hide their telltale milky-white, pupilless eyes). All ghouls suffer from a degree of physicial blindness. However their dual-nature allows them to see perfectly well on the astral plane. Ghouls cannot see colors of fine details in non-living objects, which keeps them from making effective use of most technological devices. Many of the more socially adapted ghouls use cybereyes to overcome this probelm, provided they can find some street doc willing to implant cyberware in a ghoul. Ghouls are described on p. 30 of the Critters Sourcebook.


So in one sentence, cybereyes are there for a cosmetic purpose, but finally, let's change our mind and say it's there to overcome blindness. But the fluff really say they do can use cybereyes.

And the very next paragraph is ghoul as player character. Which gives you rules to specifically handle a player wanting to be a ghoul. Which gives them the fucking blind flaw which can't be overcome by fucking cybereyes. While ghouls from the Critters Sourcebook can have cybereyes. Because fuck rules let's make a companion to have the GM decide on such stuff.

But wait!? You don't have all your books close at hand???
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Tecumseh
post Jun 18 2020, 08:55 PM
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I'm going to admit that it's been a decade or two since I played 3E.

The more recent editions are more consistent that, yes, ghouls can see if they get cybereyes, so the 3E fluff is what has carried forward. In 5E, for example, there are two qualities: Blind (can't be fixed) and Reduced Sense (can be fixed). Ghouls have Reduced Sense. 4E explicitly states, "Ghoul characters can overcome their Reduced Senses by taking cybereyes" (Runner's Companion, p. 80).

As for assensing, I think your question is, "Can the assensing determine that something is permanently dual-natured rather than just assensing at this moment?" I think the answer to that is no. Now, the Infection should be immediately obvious (unless Masked) and so it would be easy to put 2 and 2 together to determine that someone is Infected and thus is dual-natured, which gets you to the same conclusion but via a different path of logic.
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Stahlseele
post Jun 18 2020, 09:10 PM
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Yeah.
My last Game was . . i think . . about 10 years or so ago as well . .
Books went into storage somewhere in between for some reason...
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freudqo
post Jun 18 2020, 09:38 PM
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Thing is, Ghouls in SR3 have the Reduced Sense… But Ghouls in SR3 actually have the blind flaw… Because the firsts are NPCs and the latter are PCs…

And then Shapeshifters have enhanced physical attributes. And then they don't. Because some are NPCs and some are PCs. Also, their regeneration works slightly worse if they are PCs.

Anyway, I think everybody agree they should get access to cybereyes in any case…

@Acenoid: I'm curious, is it for a PC or NPC?
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Acenoid
post Jun 18 2020, 11:39 PM
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So the summary seems to be - "eyes" are not necessary for astral perception / projection regardless if ghoul, other dual-natured being or awakened metahuman.
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Stahlseele
post Jun 19 2020, 02:08 AM
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They never were.
See the use of the word PERCEPTION and not actually SIGHT.
What you do on the astral plane is not looking around.
You leave your fleshy bits such as eyes behind after all.
You 'perceive' the world around you and your brain interprets these extra sensory informations as best as it can.
Which is also why you can not really read anything while in there.
Because scribbles on paper or on a screen or printout have close to 0 emotional content.
In a hand written note, you MAY get a vague feeling of the mood the person that wrote the note was in while writing.
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pbangarth
post Jun 19 2020, 02:11 AM
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You'd probably get a whack of emotion from a poet's handwritten love sonnet.
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freudqo
post Jun 19 2020, 06:50 AM
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QUOTE (Acenoid @ Jun 18 2020, 11:39 PM) *
So the summary seems to be - "eyes" are not necessary for astral perception / projection regardless if ghoul, other dual-natured being or awakened metahuman.


Exactly, and to add to that, this is why the Blind Flaw has much less value to magically active character. It's not that big of a handicap.
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Stahlseele
post Jun 19 2020, 09:33 AM
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Aside from the not being able to read or propperly perceive anything on a screen or something like that.
Which would be a Problem even in todays Society, much less one even more technologically inclinded.
And the +4 TN Modifier of course.
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freudqo
post Jun 19 2020, 10:36 AM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jun 19 2020, 10:33 AM) *
Aside from the not being able to read or propperly perceive anything on a screen or something like that.
Which would be a Problem even in todays Society, much less one even more technologically inclinded.
And the +4 TN Modifier of course.


Yes, hence while it's still a flaw. I think it is a +2 TN modifier though.

I think they also took into account the fact that magically active people represent quite less than 1% the population, so the fact that they can be actively needed by employer everywhere could compensate the fact that it's hard to use just any computer. Other people will do that for you and you'll have plenty on your hand with taking care of the magic aspect of a run…
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Acenoid
post Jul 3 2020, 12:29 AM
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QUOTE (freudqo @ Jun 18 2020, 11:38 PM) *
Thing is, Ghouls in SR3 have the Reduced Sense… But Ghouls in SR3 actually have the blind flaw… Because the firsts are NPCs and the latter are PCs…

And then Shapeshifters have enhanced physical attributes. And then they don't. Because some are NPCs and some are PCs. Also, their regeneration works slightly worse if they are PCs.

Anyway, I think everybody agree they should get access to cybereyes in any case…

@Acenoid: I'm curious, is it for a PC or NPC?


Sorry I forgot to respond - it's for a NPC.

Actually I found something else - it is from a SR2 adventure - a mage gouged out his eyes with his bare hands. [....] Without vision, he cannot wield magic
This implicates, that astral vision is also gone unless the character gets himselve a set of new eyes...
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Stahlseele
post Jul 3 2020, 12:32 AM
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Which is wrong, especially in SR2 where Grounding was very much still a thing.
In SR3 it was less a thing that exists and as of SR4 it was almost completely gone.
I think as of SR5 and 6 there are a few new instances of it, but don't hold me to it.
I barely skimmed those before they landed in a dumpster fire . .
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Tecumseh
post Jul 3 2020, 09:19 PM
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Grounding has been gone since 3E. I don't know of any instances of it since then.

Note: you don't need eyes/sight to catch Touch spells.
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tisoz
post Jul 3 2020, 10:51 PM
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QUOTE (Acenoid @ Jul 2 2020, 07:29 PM) *
Sorry I forgot to respond - it's for a NPC.

Actually I found something else - it is from a SR2 adventure - a mage gouged out his eyes with his bare hands. [....] Without vision, he cannot wield magic
This implicates, that astral vision is also gone unless the character gets himselve a set of new eyes...

Can you tell us what adventure? I have found several rules and stats in adventures that contradicted rule books.
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Acenoid
post Jul 7 2020, 09:48 PM
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QUOTE (tisoz @ Jul 4 2020, 12:51 AM) *
Can you tell us what adventure? I have found several rules and stats in adventures that contradicted rule books.


[ Spoiler ]



[ Spoiler ]
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Sunday_Gamer
post Jul 16 2020, 05:17 AM
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Man... been a while. Just revived our old 3rd Ed Campaign, that should be good for a few chuckles.

My thoughts on the above:

Ghouls is blind, Astral perception is a psychic sense, doesn't have poopsticks to do with your eyes.
Ghouls can "see" astral space just fine. So no reading, can't see screens or through windows (that's gotta be annoying)
Now remember that when "looking" at Astral space, it's basically washed out greys for things that are in the physical world and colorfest 2050 for everything that is alive and finally Superama Colorfest for things that are actually Astral.
So yes, unless your ghoul is an Initiated magician with masking, it's pretty damn obvious he's dual-natured.

But MOST importantly, the whole Cybereyes to fix their Blindness. There is only 1 question that matters here: Is it a player character? If so then NO SUCKS TO BE YOU! READ THE DAMN FLAW!
If it's an NPC, ABSOLUTELY WOULD YOU LIKE A COMPLIMENTARY DATA JACK WITH THAT?

The whole "Blindness cannot be cured by cybereyes has no basis whatsoever in anything except controlling power gamers who think they're funny. So anyone who thinks... Damn I'll just grab this 6 point flaw and spend a few thousand Nuyen and whammo problem solved! Ya no, nice try smartass.

If you're a GM and you wanna slap some cybereyes in a ghoul so he can see again I say you go crazy go nuts...

Quick Edit: About an aura looking sickly and identifying the target as a ghoul. Auras are just colorful things, and you can see that something is Astrally active just by astrally perceiving but you won't know it's sick/a ghoul unless you ascense that aura and score at least 1 success which will give you the general health of the subject which would definitely mention something pesky like HMHVV
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Cochise
post Jul 18 2020, 08:37 PM
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QUOTE (Acenoid)
Ghouls are dual natured beings.


Indeed they are

QUOTE (Acenoid)
If the ghouls implants cybereyes to hide their true nature from others, do they lose this ability?


Dual nature is not an "ability" and no it's not lost upon implantation of cyberware of any kind.
Implanting cybereyes will only help a ghoul with bypassing the limitations imposed by the critter power "reduced senses (vision)" [for NPCs] or the "Blind" flaw [for PCs]. As some have already pointed out the "Blind" flaw creates a somewhat contradictory situation between the RAW text on the "Blind" flaw and the fluff concerning ghouls that explicitly states that (somewhat) socially adapted ghould use cyberimplants to remedy their blind state. There's actually little to resolve said contradiction however I will point out the following:

  1. While the "Blind" flaw indeed establishes that a charcter cannot simply remove their blindness via eye implants the general rules of flaw removal do allow to get rid of any flaw via spending 10 times the amount of its flaw value in Karma. Now that creates enough leeway to have cyberimplants coming back into play for the "Blind" flaw when actually combining the implant procedure along with paying said amount of Karma. Whether you want to make the eye implants in question some type of prototype cyberware or require other forms of treatment is more of a question behind the narrative of removing the flaw in the first place.
  2. While ghoul characters by RAW do possess the "Blind" flaw they actually don't have an associated flaw cost when looking at RAW. So one could argue that their flaw comes in at a price of 0 build points. Therefore one could argue that their karmic cost for removal is actually 10 * 0 = 0 but just the necessity of getting the "right" type of specialized cyber implants ... for which they still have to pay double in terms of essence due to the other ghoul traits.


QUOTE (Acenoid)
If a ghouls is scanned astral, does the ascanning person receives information that the target is a dual natured being, or just astral active atm,


Unless we're talking a magically active ghoul with access to the masking metamagical technique any astral observer will automatically perceive the ghoul as a dual natured entity but not necessarily that he's looking at a ghoul. That kind of knowledge will come from the results of the assensing test ... which actually was and still is something that I dislike about the various incarnations of the SR assensing: Too much and detailed information at relatively easy to reach thresholds regardless of the assensing entity's knowlegde. A mundane observer would have to be profcient in a multitude of knowlegde skills to get what an assensing character will learn with a very simply die roll and without any associated knowledge.

QUOTE (Acenoid)
I suppose the astral body of a ghoul would look sick and mutated (dead?)


Since being a ghoul in SR is linked to an infection with a magical virus the astral body of a ghoul should conform to the (SR3) parameters of representing a partially "idolized" version of itself, partially a reflection of his current physical body and with an aura that shows clear signs of infection with a disease ...


QUOTE (Acenoid)
Related to the case above, if a non-ghoul full mage would implant cybereyes, would he/she retain astral vision?


Yes they do retain their ability to perceive astrally. While similar in some ways we're talking two different senses: physical vision and astral perception.
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Snake Eyes
post Aug 4 2020, 01:04 AM
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Here's a link to the first post in a thread on this very topic ~21 years ago from the ShadowRN archives.

The subject is "SRIII Companion: Ghouls with cyber-eyes" in case you want to try your luck at the search by subject feature.

Hope it helps.

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