IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> SRII (but also any edition)
Ka_ge2020
post Jan 19 2021, 06:26 AM
Post #1


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 217
Joined: 13-February 06
From: Teesprawl (originally); CAS (now)
Member No.: 8,264



Hi all.

I'm starting up a Shadowrun game with some old players that I gamed with back in the Crustacean period (yes, I know...). We played SRII back in those days, so I'm back to it and fighting the urge to pull out some of the retrotech, especially since these are the same players that, last time they played and there was a decker on the team, they said, "Can't we just use a search engine?" They're also the ones that baulked at recovering their starship in a published adventure because "Surely we would have had insurance on that thing?"

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

Anyway, looking through the rules all these years gone and I'm looking at Vehicle Control Rigs and kind scratching my head. Now, be gentle with me, but: What's the point of them?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Lionesque
post Jan 19 2021, 11:06 AM
Post #2


Moving Target
**

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 140
Joined: 6-April 17
From: Copenhagen, Republic of Scandinavia
Member No.: 207,604



The VCR allows you to jack in, i.e. you replace your natural human senses with the sensors of the vehicle. You 'become' the vehicle, and can control evey bit of the vehicle at the speed of thought. This gives you superior control compared to the old wheel and stick gear - mode of driving, but obviously dulls your perception of what goes on with your meat body while you are jacked in.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mantis
post Jan 19 2021, 05:09 PM
Post #3


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,102
Joined: 23-August 09
From: Vancouver, Canada
Member No.: 17,538



More importantly, each level gives you an initiative boost while jacked in equal to what wired reflexes gives a samurai in the meat world. At least that's what they do in 1st, 2nd and 3rd ed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Iduno
post Jan 19 2021, 06:41 PM
Post #4


Moving Target
**

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 586
Joined: 27-January 07
From: United States
Member No.: 10,812



QUOTE (Mantis @ Jan 19 2021, 12:09 PM) *
More importantly, each level gives you an initiative boost while jacked in equal to what wired reflexes gives a samurai in the meat world. At least that's what they do in 1st, 2nd and 3rd ed.


In 4th they lower the threshold (hits needed for success) by one as well, which is better than just a +1. I don't remember what all else they do, but I remember the essence cost was a bit high for what they did.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ka_ge2020
post Jan 19 2021, 10:24 PM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 217
Joined: 13-February 06
From: Teesprawl (originally); CAS (now)
Member No.: 8,264



Firstly, apologies for the sucky title that failed to even mention "Rigging." Womp.

So with that fail, thanks for actually taking the time to reply.

I do need to refine my question. I can read what it does and comprehend the mechanics, but I'm just trying to figure out "what it does" in the context of the stupendous Essence cost. Clearly, as mentioned by Mantis, it is meant to parallel the function/cost of Wired Reflexes (especially in SRII).

The thing is... I cannot actually internally justify it. What actually goes in the body that would justify that level of damage to the aura/soul/pattern (or whatever the sexy term for it is now)? Everything that turns the wheel/stick or operates the pedals is in the vehicle (or drone), surely?

You jack in through a datajack, so there's obviously some headware involved. If anything, it seems more like an implanted cyberdeck at best (covered in Shadowtech)? You need something to be able to potentially hack a vehicle, possibly run subsystems (like guns) and, of course, if you're going in hot sim something to run the VR? Perhaps something to control the body so that you don't break your body in heavy manoeuvres?

Or am I completely off? Again, I just don't see why this is as invasive as, say, the venerable Wired Reflex or the "upgraded" Skillsoft Plus (Shadowtech). It just seems that the VCR is one the only (one of the few?) pieces of cyberware that I've come across that doesn't seem to make a great deal of sense (to me).

What say you?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bannockburn
post Jan 20 2021, 08:02 AM
Post #6


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,642
Joined: 22-April 12
From: somewhere far beyond sanity
Member No.: 51,886



QUOTE (Ka_ge2020 @ Jan 19 2021, 11:24 PM) *
You jack in through a datajack, so there's obviously some headware involved. If anything, it seems more like an implanted cyberdeck at best (covered in Shadowtech)? You need something to be able to potentially hack a vehicle, possibly run subsystems (like guns) and, of course, if you're going in hot sim something to run the VR? Perhaps something to control the body so that you don't break your body in heavy manoeuvres?

I always imagined it as more than just a datajack (until SR4, that is, where it's also significantly cheaper for +2 dice for vehicle tests and -1 threshold).
Instead, for me it's the modifications to the central nervous system that allow you to act as quickly in a vehicle (or piloting a drone) as if it was your own body with wired reflexes (which indeed have very similar bonuses and essence costs).
That said, with the severely lacking vehicle rules in all editions, the VCR is significantly less useful than wired reflexes, so it could be a good candidate to look at when reducing cost(s).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sendaz
post Jan 20 2021, 09:41 AM
Post #7


Runner
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,039
Joined: 23-March 05
From: The heart of Rywfol Emwolb Industries
Member No.: 7,216



QUOTE (Ka_ge2020 @ Jan 19 2021, 05:24 PM) *
I do need to refine my question. I can read what it does and comprehend the mechanics, but I'm just trying to figure out "what it does" in the context of the stupendous Essence cost. Clearly, as mentioned by Mantis, it is meant to parallel the function/cost of Wired Reflexes (especially in SRII).

The thing is... I cannot actually internally justify it. What actually goes in the body that would justify that level of damage to the aura/soul/pattern (or whatever the sexy term for it is now)? Everything that turns the wheel/stick or operates the pedals is in the vehicle (or drone), surely?


Two points:

First is the concept they didnt want EVERYONE to be a Rigger. So the high ess cost was basically a tax to limit who would take it.
So while Shadowrun doesn't have classes in the traditional senses, they still kind of set things up to create specialists in their area of expertise.

From a in-game view a high essence cost isn't so odd. The whole nervous system is sort of like your antenna to the realms and anything messing with that has always had a higher cost than simple reshaping flesh, so mere cosmetic changes will have a much lower, if any, impact on Essence.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bannockburn
post Jan 20 2021, 02:03 PM
Post #8


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,642
Joined: 22-April 12
From: somewhere far beyond sanity
Member No.: 51,886



QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jan 20 2021, 10:41 AM) *
So while Shadowrun doesn't have classes in the traditional senses, they still kind of set things up to create specialists in their area of expertise.

That's a really good addition. I haven't thought about it like this so far, but it's pretty obvious now that you mention it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ka_ge2020
post Jan 20 2021, 10:33 PM
Post #9


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 217
Joined: 13-February 06
From: Teesprawl (originally); CAS (now)
Member No.: 8,264



QUOTE (bannockburn @ Jan 20 2021, 03:02 AM) *
Instead, for me it's the modifications to the central nervous system that allow you to act as quickly in a vehicle (or piloting a drone) as if it was your own body with wired reflexes (which indeed have very similar bonuses and essence costs).

In SRII they're identical at 2, 3, and 5 for Level 1, 2, and 3, respectively. I truly understand what is meant to do, and reacting at the speed of thought without having to involve your meat sack makes a whole bunch of sense. It's that I'm not seeing--other than the mechanics, which is fair enough--a reason who you need to do the same to the body.

Put another way, if a VCR replicates Wired Reflexes, then the Rigger should also get the benefit of Wired Reflexes. This then implies that additional headware would be required to add the VCR component and... Well, my logic is kinda circular, I guess, but on the face of it you either have a "decker-rigger" or a "sam-rigger."

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Jan 20 2021, 03:02 AM) *
That said, with the severely lacking vehicle rules in all editions, the VCR is significantly less useful than wired reflexes, so it could be a good candidate to look at when reducing cost(s).

I'm trying not to be overly influenced by SRIV because we're running in the 2050s to start with, but seeing the rigging rules in the same section as the decking rules is remarkably inspirational.

QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jan 20 2021, 04:41 AM) *
First is the concept they didnt want EVERYONE to be a Rigger. So the high ess cost was basically a tax to limit who would take it.

I hadn't thought about niche protection, so good point. I don't think that I'm as concerned by this than the original designers.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cochise
post Jan 20 2021, 10:48 PM
Post #10


Mr. Quote-function
***

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,312
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Somewhere in Germany
Member No.: 1,376



QUOTE ('Ka_ge2020')
The thing is... I cannot actually internally justify it. What actually goes in the body that would justify that level of damage to the aura/soul/pattern (or whatever the sexy term for it is now)?


One of the problem here seems to be that you seem to think that there should be some degree of proportionality between the raw volume / mass that goes into a character and the associated impact on the character's "life force" (a.k.a Essence). The bad news there is: Essence is mainly a deliberaetly limited resource that is used to ...
  • ... create an upper limit for enhancements in an attempt to balance power levels. How successful that attempt truly is? Highly debatable ...
  • ... somewhat lock characters into their chosen archetype and thus better contrasting them against other archetypes with a similarly high degree of cyber depedency. This mainly tries to separate the Rigger archetype from the Cyber-Samurai archetype.



QUOTE (Sendaz)
From a in-game view a high essence cost isn't so odd. The whole nervous system is sort of like your antenna to the realms and anything messing with that has always typically had a higher cost than simple reshaping flesh, so mere cosmetic changes will have a much lower, if any, impact on Essence.


Well ... datajacks, chipjacks, cyber replacement eyes / ears and quite a view others do interface with the nervous system to a high degree and have comparatively low Essence impacts. From an ingame perspective none of the explainations that were given (holistic wholesomeness [mainly 1st and 2nd Ed.] and the degree of neural interfacing [mainly 3rd Ed]) truly justified those arbitrary Essence cost values.



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ka_ge2020
post Jan 21 2021, 01:46 AM
Post #11


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 217
Joined: 13-February 06
From: Teesprawl (originally); CAS (now)
Member No.: 8,264



Hey, Cochise. Thanks for the response.

QUOTE (Cochise @ Jan 20 2021, 05:48 PM) *
One of the problem here seems to be that you seem to think that there should be some degree of proportionality between the raw volume / mass that goes into a character and the associated impact on the character's "life force" (a.k.a Essence).

That's a good point, too. Is see what you're saying, but I don't think that I entirely agree except insofar as it comes down to niche protection and the notion of abstraction when it comes down to Essence loss. If anything, I'm viewing it in such a way that the designers were also trying to encapsulate the idea of what makes someone less... human? (Obviously a terrible notion, but understandable with their design goals.)

With that said, please understand that I'm not complaining--just trying to understand for my own purposes. The VCR is a huge red flag for me because it doesn't make in-game sense, only meta sense (as it were).

The more that I'm reading through these comments, it seems that even in SR2 taking the SR4 perspective when it comes to rigging if, for no other reason, than making sure that my Rigger player isn't always sitting on the sidelines.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ka_ge2020
post Jan 21 2021, 01:52 AM
Post #12


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 217
Joined: 13-February 06
From: Teesprawl (originally); CAS (now)
Member No.: 8,264



As Wired Reflexes and the VCR are "on the line" as it were, what do they actually do?

I'm not talking exclusively in terms of mechanics but how one might "fluffily" talk about them.

For example, Wired Reflexes buffs your body to react faster, but how does that impact the mental characteristics of the character? Is it just about getting the body to diminish the reaction time, or does the implant allow the character to process information faster?

So, to put this into practice, I imagine that there is a "headware" component of "Wired Reflexes" that speeds up the 'ole noggin' in the same way that, say, a Cerebral Booster (SR2, Shadowtech) does? Something that breaks down the barriers between observation and nerve reaction?

As someone that is trying to approach SR holistically, getting the nuances down is really important to me. Put another way, thanks for your patience.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sendaz
post Jan 21 2021, 10:02 AM
Post #13


Runner
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,039
Joined: 23-March 05
From: The heart of Rywfol Emwolb Industries
Member No.: 7,216



QUOTE (Cochise @ Jan 20 2021, 05:48 PM) *
Well ... datajacks, chipjacks, cyber replacement eyes / ears and quite a view others do interface with the nervous system to a high degree and have comparatively low Essence impacts. From an ingame perspective none of the explainations that were given (holistic wholesomeness [mainly 1st and 2nd Ed.] and the degree of neural interfacing [mainly 3rd Ed]) truly justified those arbitrary Essence cost values.


Very true.

Items like Wired Reflexes and VCRs were heavily taxed to protect niches within archetype, while things the dev probably wanted everyone to have, because Cyberpunk, seem to have been given low ess costs to ensure they could be widely used by all.

I mean almost every mage I have played have used a data jack and cyber eyes despite the small hit to Essence which affects one's Magic as the cost-benefits analysis showed it was worthwhile, especially with the Cybereyes as those extra features like low light/thermo/telescopic means better spell casting in a wide range of circumstances.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Lionesque
post Jan 21 2021, 11:12 AM
Post #14


Moving Target
**

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 140
Joined: 6-April 17
From: Copenhagen, Republic of Scandinavia
Member No.: 207,604



QUOTE (Ka_ge2020 @ Jan 21 2021, 02:52 AM) *
As Wired Reflexes and the VCR are "on the line" as it were, what do they actually do?

...

As someone that is trying to approach SR holistically, getting the nuances down is really important to me. Put another way, thanks for your patience.

I completely understand your line of thinking here, and have been (stuck) down that road. I do think, and this is very much based on experience, that your enjoyment of the game may suffer if you insist on things 'making sense'. Keep in mind that Shadowrun was ALSO a game that professed to value style over substance. So it can be a good idea to sometimes take a step back from the rules crunch and the comprehensive examination and validation of each decision made by the game designers and just go with the 'rule of cool'. If it's colorful, dramatic and fun for you and your group, who cares what the actual neurological and electronic components of a VCR unit are?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cochise
post Jan 21 2021, 07:38 PM
Post #15


Mr. Quote-function
***

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,312
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Somewhere in Germany
Member No.: 1,376



QUOTE (Ka_ge2020)
Hey, Cochise. Thanks for the response.

You're welcome


QUOTE (Ka_ge2020)
Is see what you're saying, but I don't think that I entirely agree except insofar as it comes down to niche protection and the notion of abstraction when it comes down to Essence loss. If anything, I'm viewing it in such a way that the designers were also trying to encapsulate the idea of what makes someone less... human? (Obviously a terrible notion, but understandable with their design goals.)


Oh, there's no disagreement from my end where it comes to the idea that the designers also tried to encapsulate the Cyberpunk trop of losing one's humanity with the Essence attribute. However, in the final product that idea doesn't seem to play a major factor when looking at the different Essence costs of implants. That's why I wrote that Essence mainly serves for the two points I listed.

QUOTE (Ka_ge2020)
With that said, please understand that I'm not complaining--just trying to understand for my own purposes.


It certainly didn't look like a complaint to me but my answer to your desire of trying to get a deeper understanding there is pretty much still the same: For me there simply is little to be understood outside those two major points where Essence serves as a meta mechnism and has little to offer from the ingame perspective.

QUOTE (Ka_ge2020)
The VCR is a huge red flag for me because it doesn't make in-game sense, only meta sense (as it were).


Well, I had far more problems with Essence costs of certain structural enhancements rather than the VCR. The VCR requires wiring of pretty much the entire central nervous system in order to work: motor cortex, sensory cortex, crebellum, limbic system, occipital cortex, parts of the frontal cortex, parts of the spine. Generally speaking the VCR overall looks more invasive than the equally priced Wired Reflexes.

QUOTE (Ka_ge2020)
The more that I'm reading through these comments, it seems that even in SR2 taking the SR4 perspective when it comes to rigging if, for no other reason, than making sure that my Rigger player isn't always sitting on the sidelines.


Beats me, I never had situations where Riggers were sidelined. That "priviledge" usually exclusively went to deckers. Riggers could shine as remote controlling drone operators, on-site security "hackers" whenever closed circuit security systems were involved. They also have electronic warefare ... and last but not least: They typically are the "getaway driver". The only thing that always struck me as too prohibitive in terms of Essence cost with regards to the overall ressource pool is the VCR-III. VCR-I and II usually fit easily without making the focus of the character too narrow.

QUOTE (Ka_ge2020)
As Wired Reflexes and the VCR are "on the line" as it were, what do they actually do?

I'm not talking exclusively in terms of mechanics but how one might "fluffily" talk about them.


Well, they both make serious changes to the central nervous system including the limbic system.

QUOTE (Ka_ge2020)
For example, Wired Reflexes buffs your body to react faster, but how does that impact the mental characteristics of the character? Is it just about getting the body to diminish the reaction time, or does the implant allow the character to process information faster?


Actually it's both ... unfortunately the latter part tends to evoke the idea that as a concequence the character would perceive the world moving in slow motion. I'm not certain if that truly would be the case.

QUOTE (Ka_ge2020)
So, to put this into practice, I imagine that there is a "headware" component of "Wired Reflexes" that speeds up the 'ole noggin' in the same way that, say, a Cerebral Booster (SR2, Shadowtech) does?


Yes and no. The Cerebral Booster seems to mainly aim at the frontal and temporal cortex while Wired Reflexes seem to target motor cortex, sensory cortex, parts of the occipital cortex, the cerebellum, parts of the limbic system and parts of the spine.

QUOTE (Ka_ge2020)
Something that breaks down the barriers between observation and nerve reaction?


In addition to directly causing the effects that Adrenaline has when it comes to reaction speeds it's more like bypassing or speeding up certain signal pathways than actually breaking down barries completely - be it by signal transfer via superconductive material instead of the normal axon of a neuron or directly increasing the axon propagation speed while also shortening the neuron refactory period.

QUOTE (Ka_ge2020)
As someone that is trying to approach SR holistically, getting the nuances down is really important to me. Put another way, thanks for your patience.


While you certainly can try to rationalize many things - I just did it to a certain degree - I have to agree with Lionesque there: Don't overthink the issue because the designers themselves certainly didn't do that either. Heck, I'm pretty sure that many of the explainations that they gave (or I for that matter) ultimately wouldn't hold up to scientific scrutiny more than a few seconds. Try to focus on the entertainment itself ... SR by virtue of "Where man meets machine and magic" is not suited for the "hard science" treatment.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ka_ge2020
post Jan 22 2021, 01:56 AM
Post #16


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 217
Joined: 13-February 06
From: Teesprawl (originally); CAS (now)
Member No.: 8,264



QUOTE (Lionesque @ Jan 21 2021, 06:12 AM) *
I do think, and this is very much based on experience, that your enjoyment of the game may suffer if you insist on things 'making sense'.

I'll be honest. One of the reasons that I'm asking these questions is that I'm not using the SR2 system (I'm dropping the Roman numeral thing for clarity). I hope that you don't find this in anyway disingenuous and, if so, my sincere apologies.

What I was trying to get at is how the tech operates rather than just accepting what is in this case extreme values (despite the niche protection argument, which was on point and awesome).

QUOTE (Lionesque @ Jan 21 2021, 06:12 AM) *
If it's colorful, dramatic and fun for you and your group, who cares what the actual neurological and electronic components of a VCR unit are?

In this case, the players are very likely--and very reasonably!--going to ask why they're paying for wired reflexes and only getting it in a vehicle. On my own behalf, I would rather disassociate the idea of "niche" and just get to the technology. If someone wants to be a mage-Rigger? I'm comfortable with that as long as they're willing to take the Essence dump.

A Sam-Mage? Yeah, not so much.

QUOTE (Cochise @ Jan 21 2021, 02:38 PM) *
That's why I wrote that Essence mainly serves for the two points I listed.

And I am in no way disagreeing with you in terms of the original rules as written.

QUOTE (Cochise @ Jan 21 2021, 02:38 PM) *
Well, I had far more problems with Essence costs of certain structural enhancements rather than the VCR. The VCR requires wiring of pretty much the entire central nervous system in order to work: motor cortex, sensory cortex, crebellum, limbic system, occipital cortex, parts of the frontal cortex, parts of the spine. Generally speaking the VCR overall looks more invasive than the equally priced Wired Reflexes.

I disagree with your assessment of the VCR insofar as I'm not agreeing that the niche protection is a valid thing. For example, being able to move your arms faster in no way means that the vehicle is going to have a better turn radius. The only thing that makes the vehicle have a better turn radius is for there to be work done on the vehicle to make sure that it has a better turn radius.

As I'm looking at it, Rigging is about skill foremost. Just jacking in doesn't make you a better driver even if it mitigates the brain-central nervous system issue. Tweaking the actual CNS isn't doing bupkis.

There are, however, questions on how a VCR might operate. When you plug-in to a vehicle, for example, do you have to override a firewall? Have software available to handle that vehicle?

I guess I'm arguing that the SR4 option makes more sense than SR2.

QUOTE (Cochise @ Jan 21 2021, 02:38 PM) *
Riggers could shine as remote controlling drone operators, on-site security "hackers" whenever closed circuit security systems were involved.

A very reasonable point. Indeed, that's exactly what my current Rigger character is wanting to do!

On the other hand, SR2 doesn't allow for Riggers doing hacking unless they're willing to split their skill base and having to invest in another technology.

Are we talking about this purely from the SR4 perspective? I don't have a problem with that. If nothing else I'm arguing that the SR4 perspective makes more sense in SR2 even if you're not fully enabling wireless modems/commlinks.

QUOTE (Cochise @ Jan 21 2021, 02:38 PM) *
The only thing that always struck me as too prohibitive in terms of Essence cost with regards to the overall ressource pool is the VCR-III. VCR-I and II usually fit easily without making the focus of the character too narrow.

And all I'm saying is that I would rather go down the route of SR4 and ignoring niche protection to make this a more sensible decision. You're not going to get Sam-Rigger-Deckers, but you're always going to get Rigger-Deckers. Which, well, kinda makes sense even in the real world.

QUOTE (Cochise @ Jan 21 2021, 02:38 PM) *
Well, they both make serious changes to the central nervous system including the limbic system.

From the pure assessment of the tech, rather than the mechanics (and inferred designer intent), I once again disagree with you. I'm seriously seeing no reason that the rigger needs to interface with their vehicle except insofar as the conceit is that you improve the body and you improve the mind.

I find it far more likely that the VCR actually improves the brain than the body.

QUOTE (Cochise @ Jan 21 2021, 02:38 PM) *
Actually it's both ... unfortunately the latter part tends to evoke the idea that as a concequence the character would perceive the world moving in slow motion. I'm not certain if that truly would be the case.

If the results means that you must process information faster, then surely that's a pro? It identifies a secondary effect that needs to be taken into account?

QUOTE (Cochise @ Jan 21 2021, 02:38 PM) *
While you certainly can try to rationalize many things - I just did it to a certain degree - I have to agree with Lionesque there: Don't overthink the issue because the designers themselves certainly didn't do that either. Heck, I'm pretty sure that many of the explainations that they gave (or I for that matter) ultimately wouldn't hold up to scientific scrutiny more than a few seconds. Try to focus on the entertainment itself ... SR by virtue of "Where man meets machine and magic" is not suited for the "hard science" treatment.

And I guess what I'm saying is that, despite the above, the VCR doesn't hold water beyond the niche protection thing, was is a null thing as far as I can tell.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ka_ge2020
post Jan 23 2021, 04:11 AM
Post #17


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 217
Joined: 13-February 06
From: Teesprawl (originally); CAS (now)
Member No.: 8,264



I'll tell you what. One of the things that I frequently do when something in a system doesn't work is to try and see if it can be made into another system. If it makes more sense there, bring back the concepts; if it makes no sense, then toss it.

So what I'll try and do is look into another system for inspiration on Wired Reflexes (not a problem), and how a VCR might be re-twigged. To be honest, though, I suspect that I'll be drawing more inspiration from SR4 than SR2 for the latter.

More soon. As soon as life doesn't keep on giving me those 'ole lemons. O_o
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cochise
post Jan 24 2021, 12:40 PM
Post #18


Mr. Quote-function
***

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,312
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Somewhere in Germany
Member No.: 1,376



QUOTE (Ka_ge2020)
I disagree with your assessment of the VCR insofar as I'm not agreeing that the niche protection is a valid thing.


My actual assessment of the VCR wasn't about the validity of niche protection. I only said that this is how - in part - the Essence costs of the VCR in SR 1 to 3 apprear to have come into existance.

QUOTE (Ka_ge2020)
For example, being able to move your arms faster in no way means that the vehicle is going to have a better turn radius. The only thing that makes the vehicle have a better turn radius is for there to be work done on the vehicle to make sure that it has a better turn radius.


~hmm~ I don't recall having made any reference to increased physical movement speed affecting vehicular performance.

QUOTE (Ka_ge2020)
As I'm looking at it, Rigging is about skill foremost. Just jacking in doesn't make you a better driver even if it mitigates the brain-central nervous system issue. Tweaking the actual CNS isn't doing bupkis.


Just for the record: The brain is part of the central nervous system and if I where to break down the various connections that I referenced with regards of the VCR and the "assuming the body" concept then they'd roughly look like this:

  • frontal lobe connectivity for access to skill
  • motor cortex and cerebellum to access / coordinate all the various control functions of the vehicle while applying those skills that come from the frontal lobe
  • sensory cortex and occipital cortex to receive the sensor information provided by the vehicle
  • limbic system as a (small) part of the "reaction enhancement" in that connection.
  • spine just because the ASIST technology needs a way for filtering / shutting down the rigger's physical body sensations and reactions while the rigger is using those connected brain sections for the desired rigging purposes.



QUOTE (Ka_ge2020)
I guess I'm arguing that the SR4 option makes more sense than SR2.


Yes and no. The main conflict stems from something that so far was only slightly touched upon and has nothing to do with the contrast between Wired Reflexes vs. VCR but instead is all about Essence costs for Decking vs. Rigging. SR4+ equalized the interface tech wheras SR1 to 3 saw the involved technology as similar in part but distinctively different in execution:

The stipulation for Decking seems to be that a mainly frontal lobe connected datajack is enough to connect to a cyberdeck and then operate on full VR immersion within the Matrix with the cyberdeck providing all necessariy functions to control the virtual avatar. There it seems to be enough to "think" of any action rather than involving and activating all the other brain regions.

Rigging on the other hand involved pretty much the entire brain being connected to the interface and the interface itself also included parts of the tech that for deckers is part of their cyberdeck.

The whole premise there is that two distinct interface technologies with similar purposes do exist in parallel there. The only present day analogy I can come up with there now is the comparison between hardware based multi-boxing and software based multi-boxing in computer games. Both deliver the same result of a player being able to simultaneously steer several characters in a multiplayer game environment while using the same base technology (personal computers) but vastly different implementations and associated costs. Hardware based multiboxing has become somewhat obsolete because of the cost differences but it still exists. About 5 to 10 years ago both implementations were on a more equal footing ... and that's where I see the main distinction when looking at SR1-3 vs. SR4+: SR4+ stipulates that the technology for Decking and Rigging has converged to a point where the "software-based" technology for Decking has fully replaced the "hardware-based" implementation for Rigging whereas SR1-3 stipulated that the two different implementations existed side by side with limited overlap from one to the other.

QUOTE (Ka_ge2020)
On the other hand, SR2 doesn't allow for Riggers doing hacking unless they're willing to split their skill base and having to invest in another technology.


I put "hacking" in quotation marks for a good reason. Closed circuit security systems (CCSS) and their interface technology in SR2 and SR3 are described as the technological equivalent of a vehicle just on building level. This brings us back to the implementation differences between Rigging and Decking. A SR2/3 Rigger who adds CCSS hacking to his repertoire doesn't have to split his skill base beyond the scope of things he'd have to invest for remote drone operation and he still isn't a Decker and will be of little use in the Decking circus (just like the Decker will not be good as CCSS hacking or vehicle operation).

QUOTE (Ka_ge2020)
Are we talking about this purely from the SR4 perspective?

Prior to this posting I was looking at this mainly from the SR1 to 3 perspective because that's where my personal preference lies.

QUOTE (Ka_ge2020)
I don't have a problem with that. If nothing else I'm arguing that the SR4 perspective makes more sense in SR2 even if you're not fully enabling wireless modems/commlinks.


From an engineering standpoint either perspective makes sense to me. For me it boils down to how far evolved one's SR universe is supposed to be. The original premise for SR1-3 is deeply rooted in 1970ies and 1980ies technological concepts where a plethora of different implementations for the same purpose co-existed and none had (yet) become so dominant that it directly caused the others to go extinct. SR4+ is more of a re-write with the 1900ies and 2000s in mind where certain implementations have either truly gone exctinct or were pressured into very tiny niches.

Personally I prefer the original SR vibe and still see the SR universe as a truly alternative reality where neither certain real world technological consolidations ever occured (along with ignoring retro actively introduced real world events and trends) nor the in-fiction technolgies for Rigging and Decking have converged to the point where they are "the same".

QUOTE (Ka_ge2020)
And all I'm saying is that I would rather go down the route of SR4 and ignoring niche protection to make this a more sensible decision.


I have no objection about you doing that ... but I'm inclined to say that chosing the SR4 route is not necessarily the "more sensible" decision but rather a distinct world building decision on how and how far the in-fiction technologies in general and for human / machine interfaces in particular have evolved.

QUOTE (Ka_ge2020)
From the pure assessment of the tech, rather than the mechanics (and inferred designer intent), I once again disagree with you.


And I'd say that you're disagreeing to something that I didn't even say.
See, I referenced that both VCR and Wired Reflexes are modifications to pretty much the same parts of the CNS but under different goals (and the VCR possibly being more invasive overall). The difference I see between them is as follows:

On the VCR side you have predominantly modifications to all neurons in the associated brain regions in a way that overall muxes and demuxes the input and output from either region towards and from the VCR <-> datajack <-> vehicle interface as well as retaining the normal signal pathways between those regions (and subsequently the physical body as well) in parallel => No "speed gains" when dealing with strictly physical actions but enhanced transmission speeds on the VCR pathway due to the various brain signals being directly fed into superconductive materials and / or are translated onto optical fibres at the respective source region.

On the Wired Reflexes side there's no need for that kind of mux/demux connectivity but instead those regions now are fitted with modifications that improve the interconnectivity between them thus indeed speeding up the brain processes permanently (or at least when the system is enabled). Unlike the VCR the Wired Reflexes would also include a larger modification to the spine and possibly the entire rest of the nervous system because you'd want those signal pathways also to be much faster.

QUOTE (Ka_ge2020)
And I guess what I'm saying is that, despite the above, the VCR doesn't hold water beyond the niche protection thing, was is a null thing as far as I can tell.


And I would still disagree.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ka_ge2020
post Jan 25 2021, 03:13 AM
Post #19


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 217
Joined: 13-February 06
From: Teesprawl (originally); CAS (now)
Member No.: 8,264



QUOTE (Cochise @ Jan 24 2021, 07:40 AM) *
My actual assessment of the VCR wasn't about the validity of niche protection. I only said that this is how - in part - the Essence costs of the VCR in SR 1 to 3 apprear to have come into existance.

Apologies for my misunderstanding.

QUOTE (Cochise @ Jan 24 2021, 07:40 AM) *
~hmm~ I don't recall having made any reference to increased physical movement speed affecting vehicular performance.

You didn't. I guess I was riffing off the notion that it was "Wired Reflexes for cars/etc." to explain the large Essence hole.

QUOTE (Cochise @ Jan 24 2021, 07:40 AM) *
  • frontal lobe connectivity for access to skill
  • motor cortex and cerebellum to access / coordinate all the various control functions of the vehicle while applying those skills that come from the frontal lobe
  • sensory cortex and occipital cortex to receive the sensor information provided by the vehicle
  • limbic system as a (small) part of the "reaction enhancement" in that connection.
  • spine just because the ASIST technology needs a way for filtering / shutting down the rigger's physical body sensations and reactions while the rigger is using those connected brain sections for the desired rigging purposes.

Great response! And, FWIW, I agree with most of this.

QUOTE (Cochise @ Jan 24 2021, 07:40 AM) *
Rigging on the other hand involved pretty much the entire brain being connected to the interface and the interface itself also included parts of the tech that for deckers is part of their cyberdeck.

Yet both cases you're essentially talking about a complex, implanted computer--much like a cyberdeck. And cyberdecks can also be installed.

While I get the gist of what you were talking about with "multiboxing" I have no idea what it is (and a quick Google just refers to playing multiple characters in MMORPGs). Again, though, I get what you're saying, and it's a reasonable argument.

QUOTE (Cochise @ Jan 24 2021, 07:40 AM) *
I put "hacking" in quotation marks for a good reason. Closed circuit security systems (CCSS) and their interface technology in SR2 and SR3 are described as the technological equivalent of a vehicle just on building level. This brings us back to the implementation differences between Rigging and Decking. A SR2/3 Rigger who adds CCSS hacking to his repertoire doesn't have to split his skill base beyond the scope of things he'd have to invest for remote drone operation and he still isn't a Decker and will be of little use in the Decking circus (just like the Decker will not be good as CCSS hacking or vehicle operation).

This has a little bit more oomph to it, and certainly something that I need to bring into the mix. I do see there being differences in skill bases between the two. And there are definitely areas where you can see this happening, i.e. they're not necessarily coders.

I also apologise for not being as sensitive to the edition of Shadowrun as you are doing. I'm fighting the urge to keep the retrotech elements even though it has the back of my eyes itching. Perhaps the Rigging/Decking dichotomy is one step too far.

QUOTE (Cochise @ Jan 24 2021, 07:40 AM) *
And I would still disagree.

Where would the fun be if everyone agreed on the same things?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tiralee
post Jan 25 2021, 10:17 AM
Post #20


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 917
Joined: 5-September 03
From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Member No.: 5,585



My 2 cents in a topic filled with gold:

Yes, VCR is Wired for vehicles (and building, but we'll get to that) in that it juices up the init AND (in the case for SR3) gave you a yummy control pool for your drones and smart turrets to roll some extra dice and strawberry jam the nasties.

Huh, I also thought that having a VCR rig also reduced TN's for certain actions, based on the rating of the VCR. Specifically handling, maybe perception through the sensors...But I just did a quick dig through Rigger 3 and SR3 and found nothing mentioning that, so I might be mis-remembering this.

Regarding TN's, hmm, anyone got some input on this as it's going to bug the hell out of me now.

Regards,
-Tir
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
KCKitsune
post Jan 25 2021, 02:00 PM
Post #21


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,188
Joined: 9-February 08
From: Boiling Springs
Member No.: 15,665



QUOTE (Iduno @ Jan 19 2021, 01:41 PM) *
In 4th they lower the threshold (hits needed for success) by one as well, which is better than just a +1. I don't remember what all else they do, but I remember the essence cost was a bit high for what they did.


I never played 2nd edition, but in 4th edition, a Control Rig no longer had a rating was just a flat 0.5 Essence & 10,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) price tag. It gave you a +2 dice pool modifier to any vehicle test while "jumped in"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ka_ge2020
post Jan 27 2021, 04:22 AM
Post #22


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 217
Joined: 13-February 06
From: Teesprawl (originally); CAS (now)
Member No.: 8,264



And I also note that SR4's 2050 supplement also returns to the large Essence cost.

*shrugs*

Thanks for the healthy debate. I'll try and post an alternate system gander to see how it pans out. This way I'll be able to test it in the forthcoming game. At first glance, I'm going to be taking some of the excellent suggestions made in this thread. I suspect that I'll go with it being far less invasive, though not quite as cutting-edge as a cyberdeck. Probably focussing on how many "things" you can control at once.

After that, just what can be done will depend on the drone/vehicle in questions and its hardware (sensors, armaments) and software (control, AI etc.) capabilities are.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bannockburn
post Jan 27 2021, 07:53 AM
Post #23


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,642
Joined: 22-April 12
From: somewhere far beyond sanity
Member No.: 51,886



QUOTE (Ka_ge2020 @ Jan 27 2021, 05:22 AM) *
And I also note that SR4's 2050 supplement also returns to the large Essence cost.

I wouldn't say so much that it 'returns' to that. 2050 is, after all, not a continuation of the timeline but rather a throwback to the classics.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ka_ge2020
post Jan 27 2021, 07:59 AM
Post #24


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 217
Joined: 13-February 06
From: Teesprawl (originally); CAS (now)
Member No.: 8,264



QUOTE (bannockburn @ Jan 27 2021, 02:53 AM) *
I wouldn't say so much that it 'returns' to that. 2050 is, after all, not a continuation of the timeline but rather a throwback to the classics.

Point. I was merely suggesting that it argued the case for those that are pro-high Essence cost.

I think that I'm sold on the idea that this should just be ignored. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ka_ge2020
post Feb 1 2021, 07:24 AM
Post #25


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 217
Joined: 13-February 06
From: Teesprawl (originally); CAS (now)
Member No.: 8,264



So, trying to get back into what a VCR actually does, it seems that it allows you to focus on the activities of 1-3 vehicles/drones, right? That's the major feature?

It can give you a combat buff while in the vehicle, right?

You might be able to process information faster?

What else does it actually do?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 28th March 2024 - 03:29 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.