Less ridiculous cyberlimb costs SR3 Options

[Catsnightmare]

Looking for ideas on what you would consider "fair pricing" on cyberlimbs in SR3. I never looked at them before but have noticed that they are outrageous, why would anyone get a cyberlimb costing 75,000 when a vat grown limb is only 25,000!

I thought as a baseline to start with, just quarter the costs of cyberlimbs and related mods, but I'm open to other ideas and suggestions.

[bannockburn]

It's a bit funny how the edition that you hate so much according to your signature does cyberware costs so much better. Not only for limbs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Cochise]

Looking for ideas on what you would consider "fair pricing" on cyberlimbs in SR3.

Within my experience there is no singular and particularly no simple approach to "fair(er) pricing" for cyberlimbs in SR3 (or SR2 and SR1) because ...

I never looked at them before but have noticed that they are outrageous, why would anyone get a cyberlimb costing 75,000 when a vat grown limb is only 25,000!

... despite that discrepancy you just showed it's (IMHO) not so much the "outrageous" basic ¥ costs of the item itself that usually invalidate cyberlimbs but instead everything else that comes with the territory:

• primary Essence cost per limb
• available Equipment Capacity Units in limbs (particularly in conjunction with higher cyberware grades)
• actual Equipment Capacity costs for gear (that also don't have any form of equipment grades that tie into cyberware grades)
• Essence costs for equipment that requires some form of neurological interface - particularly when looking at stuff that could either be cyberlimb equipment or a dedicated implant by itself (Smartlink always annoys me there in particular due to the perceived inconsistency between Core rules and Man & Machine once you look at the Smartlink components)
• (fixed) Base attributes for cyberlimbs that don't scale well
• Upgrades to said Base attributes that don't scale well either (both in terms of ¥ and Essence costs)
• medical ¥ costs once you decide to include stuff like the advanced surgery rules

Therefore I'll say that ...

I thought as a baseline to start with, just quarter the costs of cyberlimbs and related mods, but I'm open to other ideas and suggestions.

... simply cutting cyberlimb ¥ and related mod costs by 75% will most likely lead to other (potentially even more serious) headaches. You'll have to redo the entire cyberlimb ruleset in order to turn it into a consistant and balanced thing and then you'll probably end up questioning Essence as a mechanic in general ... at which point you've entered deep into the "SR3.X revised rule" territory where you'll face the problems of "How much can I change before it becomes a truly 'new' edition that should get a new version number and has a totally different feel than SR3?" and "Do I really want to create yet another 'super crunch-heavy' RPG system?"

Sorry, that I can't be of better assistance.

[Iduno]

... despite that discrepancy you just showed it's (IMHO) not so much the "outrageous" basic ¥ costs of the item itself that usually invalidate cyberlimbs but instead everything else that comes with the territory:

• pirmary Essence cost per limb
• available Equipment Capacity Units in limbs (particularly in conjunction with higher cyberware grades)
• actual Equipment Capacity costs for gear (that also don't have any form of equipment grades that ties into cyberware grades)
• Essence costs for equipment that requires some form of neurological interface - particularly when looking at stuff that could either be cyberlimb equipment or a dedicated implant by itself (Smartlink always annoys me there in particular due to the perceived inconsistency between Core rules and Man & Machine once you look at the Smartlink components)
• (fixed) Base attributes for cyberlimbs that don't scale well
• Upgrades to said Base attributes that don't scale well either (both in terms of ¥ and Essence costs)
• medical ¥ costs once you decide to include stuff like the advanced surgery rules

Yeah, I like what they *tried* to do with Augmentation in 4th edition with bulk cyberlimbs and redlining your limbs. Without making it just better (cough dikote cough), they gave cyberlimb options that could sort of compare to other options.

[Stahlseele]

Cyberlimbs have never and sadly probably will never be worth it.
SR4 went a bit in the correct direction to address this mistake . .
And then SR5 and later on of course did a complete 180° change
in direction because OH NO THE MUNDANES CAN'T HAVE SOME
THING NICE! WE NEED TO PRESERVE THE MAGICAL SUPREMACY!

[KCKitsune]

Cyberlimbs have never and sadly probably will never be worth it.
SR4 went a bit in the correct direction to address this mistake . .
And then SR5 and later on of course did a complete 180° change

SR 5 and SR 6 are dumpster fires that shouldn't be discussed in polite company.
SR 2 and 3 had some really neat books, but honestly my heart will always be with SR4A. Sure it was getting "Transhumanist" rather than Cyberpunk, but that can be dealt with by the way the GM runs the game.

[pbangarth]

SR 2 and 3 had some really neat books, but honestly my heart will always be with SR4A. Sure it was getting "Transhumanist" rather than Cyberpunk, but that can be dealt with by the way the GM runs the game.

+1

I had always hoped to find a campaign (SR4/4A) in which I could have played a character, Sept de Neuf (props for figuring out the reference), a young woman from Québec. Disease withered her limbs, and Dad's corporation 'kindly' paid for replacement limbs that fit her sci-fi fantasies. Then Dad fell out of favour and the corp demanded their property back. She fled to the shadows.

[Bodak]

simply cutting cyberlimb ¥ and related mod costs by 75% will most likely lead to other (potentially even more serious) headaches.

Agreed. I looked into fitting a pair of cyberlegs, pair of cyberarms, cybertorso and cyberskull as second-hand alphaware. I also wanted Snake Eyes from Rigger 3. There are cyberware suites, but a total-conversion to this extent is wandering into cyberzombie territory (ie cyborgs are possible for megacorps / militaries, but not explicitly defined for players' use). Houseruling the impact of cyberware to be more forgiving would allow such survivors to be legal options.

The fixed attributes of cyberlimbs are a real pain. Do you dump your natural physical attributes and depend on the augmented attributes provided by your implants? That makes buying skills prohibitively expensive extremely fast. Do you invest in natural physical attributes for the benefit of your skills even though they have no effect on the real world due to not having any natural limbs? "Initiative is based on a character's (augmented) Reaction, plus a character's Initiative dice." (SR3.42) so that's a relief. Armour which exceeds Quickness penalises Combat Pool, Quickness tests and Movement rate (SR3.285) - natural or augmented Quickness?

available Equipment Capacity Units in limbs

Not only that, but trying to get agreement between Equipment Capacity of limbs and Cargo Factor (eg of Articulated Arm (M&M.40, picture on CC.34) or Mechanical Arm (R3.152) which can take cyberarm enhancements) is already a nightmare. The reference point for calibration is 1 CF = 125 litres (SR3.133) and 1 ECU = 50 ml (M&M.35) giving us a coefficient of 2500:1. Installing a cyberdeck, remote control deck or "cellular" telephone (R3.146, M&M.36) instead use coefficients of 94:1 to 125:1. And when you get to the humble OMC at an explicit 6 ml (SR3.295), it occupies a whopping 0.5 ECU = 25 ml (M&M.37) where the coefficient is flipped to 1:4! If installing cyberlimbs becomes more commonplace in response to lenient houserules, such discrepancies are rapidly going to become a bone of contention.

I like Eclipse Phase, but at some point down the transhumanism-posthumanism continuum it's probably easier to just play EP than to test-drive SR3 with cyborgs.

[Lionesque]

+1

I had always hoped to find a campaign (SR4/4A) in which I could have played a character, Sept de Neuf

Real name Annika Hansen?

[pbangarth]

Real name Annika Hansen?

Of her idol, yes! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)