Gel Rounds and Full Autofire, making people die from stun overflow |
Gel Rounds and Full Autofire, making people die from stun overflow |
May 23 2004, 02:10 AM
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#1
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
How much heat can gel rounds take? Can you fire them on full autofire without them either exploding or melting or whatever it is they do when they overheat?
~J |
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May 23 2004, 02:19 AM
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#2
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Gel exploding when it overheats? Sounds weird, but I have no clue what Gel rounds are really supposed to be, either. Melting I could understand, which might foul up the barrel might quick if you fired a few hundred through a machine gun.
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May 23 2004, 02:22 AM
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#3
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Exploding being a bit of hyperbole. Closer to popping than exploding.
~J |
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May 23 2004, 02:25 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 403 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Scotland Member No.: 3,175 |
Well, acording to SR3 they're "semi-rigid slugs"... So I guess they're quite similar to rubber bullets, only a bit more eh, squishy. At worst they'd probably expand enough that they didn't fire properly, or perhaps melt and make a right mess of your weapon. But really, I wouldn't worry about it myself. The rules don't mention it being a problem, and that's good enough for me on this one. :)
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May 23 2004, 02:25 AM
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#5
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Per canon, yes. In terms of real life, gel rounds already create enough problems elsewhere for this to be a notable single issue. I guess I'd only allow SA, personally.
[edit] Come to think of it, might force manual weapon cycling with them, too. This post has been edited by Arethusa: May 23 2004, 02:29 AM |
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May 23 2004, 02:31 AM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 260 Joined: 20-March 04 From: That really good state. Yeah, you know the one... Member No.: 6,177 |
I cant imagine why they wouldnt be compatible with full auto fire by the 2060's. Despite the apparent stagnation of weapons design in SR we know that chemistry (and practically every other field) has advanced by leaps and bounds so I think it is safe to say they have come up with something that would do the trick. Also, aren't most non lethals designed at least partially with riot control in mind? I'd certainly hope for a more effective way to deal with a frenzied mob then one at a time.
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May 23 2004, 02:41 AM
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#7
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
If you look at most less lethal shotgun rounds, you'll note that very few automatic shotguns will successfully cycle them. That's most what I'm going off of.
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May 23 2004, 02:50 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 260 Joined: 20-March 04 From: That really good state. Yeah, you know the one... Member No.: 6,177 |
True enough. I have to agree with Zeel De Mort though. I think they are simply "squishy rubber bullets".
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May 23 2004, 02:53 AM
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#9
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
You could probably make something recoil operated to fire gell rounds in SA mode, thugh you probably couldn't fire regular rounds in it. The problem the SAQ shoguns have is that they are gas operated, and the gel rounds are very low pressure. Which means that they do not generate enoguh gas pressure to cycle the action. Really gel rounds should be limited to shotguns, since you need the projectile mass that only a shotgun or other large bore firearm can deliver.
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May 23 2004, 04:03 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 216 Joined: 27-January 04 Member No.: 6,025 |
You can make the gel the core of the bullet with a hard casing that discards with in inches of leaving the barrel similar to way discarding sabot slugs work today.
bullet is fired, air friction sheds the shell seven centimeters out of the barrel, the gel expands to look something like an inverted/sideways W/pointy end towards target teardrop, teardrop hits, expands to surface, corp secretary-01 fall down unconsious. 8) |
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May 23 2004, 05:30 AM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
Hopefully.
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May 23 2004, 06:08 AM
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#12
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
This is, of course, right after the sabot has already imbedded itself in the corp secretary's brainpan... The sabot is going to be dangerous is the typically short range you will be suing gel rounds. It will probably be lethal out to around 10 feet and dangerous out to 25 (50?), and you have almost no idea of the path the sabot is going to follow...
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May 23 2004, 09:07 AM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 30-May 03 From: Tulsa, OK Member No.: 4,652 |
I have to say, I can recall the first time our team took gel rounds as our main ammo instead of regular rounds and we still managed to kill one poor guy from overflow when a couple of us shot him at the same time...with pistols.
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May 23 2004, 02:04 PM
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#14
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
Suppose you could say the "gel" rounds are actually "Stun" and that they and that they expand and open (like air brakes) for a larger surface area, but then you have problems with range and such
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May 23 2004, 04:21 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
rubber bullets have a large impact surface when they hit things, but not so much when they're just flying through air. still gel rounds would be more suited to large caliber low pressure cartridges like .45ACP or .50GI i think a weapon specially modified to shoot them would have no problem, similar to Simunitions paintball modified autopistols http://www.simunition.com/ and if that's too expensive or you want to be able to quickly switch to lethal ammo there's always revolvers. but i don't think there's a problem with full auto gel, simunitions even has full auto gun kits. |
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May 23 2004, 05:05 PM
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#16
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
To my knowledge, converting a gun to fire simunitions, even on full auto, requires a barrel replacement and maybe some other tuning. Not terrible intensive work, but not something you can do in the field, either.
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May 23 2004, 05:13 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 236 Joined: 14-March 04 From: Cal Poly: SLO Member No.: 6,155 |
If you're concerned about them not cycling properly, get a revolver. Won't hold as much, but shouldn't have any trouble loading. (Just a hunch here, could be wrong)
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May 24 2004, 07:28 AM
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#18
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Target Group: Members Posts: 94 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Loughborough, UK Member No.: 1,321 |
I know from bitter experience that Gel rounds are anything but non-lethal- in a game last weekend one of my players almost killed outright three people with gel rounds from an M23 (two on serious wounds, one on deadly). The kicker was that the most he fired was a three-round burst, and one ended up downed by a single round. It's not the rounds that are the problem, but the players who don't know when to stop adding combat pool... :dead:
-JH. |
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May 24 2004, 07:47 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 942 Joined: 13-May 04 Member No.: 6,323 |
I'm confused. How could a single three round burst kill with Gel rounds? The most you should be able to do is Deadly stun damage with a single burst...
JaronK |
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May 24 2004, 07:53 AM
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#20
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
IIRC, there are optional staging rules that allow for staging beyond deadly stun at a rate of one box of physical per two successes.
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May 24 2004, 08:12 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
Wow. That's a WHOLE LOT of successes, then, if you're worried about killing people with them. If you're at the point where you're getting close to 20 successes, perhaps you should start taking called shots at their feet or something to cut down on lethality...
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May 24 2004, 08:38 AM
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#22
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Doesn't really take much. Fire a burst, staging up to S; successes stage to D. Then a team mate, feeling plucky, decides to make sure the guy goes down and does the same thing. Whoops.
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May 24 2004, 04:31 PM
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#23
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Are you sure it's only one box? I thought it overflowed in the usual L-M-S-D configuration…
~J |
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May 24 2004, 04:42 PM
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#24
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Hell no, that would give me nightmares.
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May 24 2004, 07:09 PM
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#25
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Target Group: Members Posts: 94 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Loughborough, UK Member No.: 1,321 |
It's frightening how easy it is- your bog-standard M23 does 8M, so that's 6M Stun with Gel rounds. Firing a burst, that's 9S Stun. Now say Experienced Ex-Military Runner X decides to fire using his skill of 7, plus six dice of combat pool. He's at about fifty metres with his rifle shouldered, off-hand on foregrip, looking down the lowlight scope at the pretty red dot of his laser sight centre-mass on his target. His first simple action before shooting is to aim. His TNs are 2. On average rounding down, he'll get ten successes, quite sufficient to stage the damage up to deadly physical (five stages, each needing two successes- whether it's the standard rules or just us, our normal procedure is to stage from Stun into physical at the same rate, essentially meaning there are four 'more' damage levels). And thus the quarterback is toast.
As to the actual effects and whether it's possible to kill someone with a gel round, I'm running on the idea that my gunbunny player got one round a little high, catching his slow-on-uptake target in the temple. Skull fractures and significant neural damage even from a short sharp blow that doesn't break the skin can often be fatal, or at least enough to dump NPC Z in intensive care for a month or two... -JH. |
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