Humanoid Combat Drones, Definitely better for defense than offense Options

[JanessaVR]

Something I’ve considered for some time is the possible combat potential for drones such as the Renraku Manservant-3 (SR4 Arsenal, pp. 120-121). They are “capable of working around the clock doing domestic tasks, such as laundry, cleaning, food prep, and so on, without ever getting tired or worked up.” And they’re only 2,500¥ a pop, too. Well then, it sounds like they can operate firearms while they’re at it. This might be disallowed by the manufacturer, but I rather imagine you can bypass those restrictions without too much trouble and load some basic combat software into them to turn them into grunts you could use in the field.

Now, they’d be terrible in melee combat. It’s not what they’re made for and Bog the Trog™ would quickly smash them into scrap if he got within arm’s reach of them. But if you got them behind cover and told them to shoot anyone or anything that didn’t have one of your team’s IFF transponders, they could be useful. The biggest danger would be hacking, so you’d be crazy if you didn’t disconnect their wireless ability entirely and run fiber optic cables into a port on their back to your central control console for the team rigger to manage.

So, you could get “a dozen guys” to watch over your hideout / command post in the field who don’t talk back and aren’t demanding a share of the payout. Something to consider.

[Cochise]

I'm not sure if I'd take that over an Ares Sentinel P or R system

[JanessaVR]

I'm not sure if I'd take that over an Ares Sentinel P or R system

The R Series is on a rail, so it's not exactly portable. Where's the P Series?

[pbangarth]

Sentinel "P", Rigger 3 page 172, price 32,000 nuyen, page 174. Also on rail.

[JanessaVR]

Sentinel "P", Rigger 3 page 172, price 32,000 nuyen, page 174. Also on rail.

Ok, so way more expensive and way less portable than the humanoid drones.

[pbangarth]

Well, the R series is only 2000 nuyen.

[JanessaVR]

Ok, that's far less than 32k. But still, unless you plan on carrying around rails and a construction crew, the humanoid drones are going to be more practical. You could get some custom-designed trunks. Each one has a curled-up humanoid drone, a heavy rifle, and 2 dozen loaded magazines. Toss 6 of those in the back of your van and take off. When you get to your destination, unpack them, hook in the control cables, and they'll grab/load their guns and take up position as needed. Sentry In A Box.

[pbangarth]

Work out the cost of labour and materials, and it would still seem to be a good deal.

Huh.

[JanessaVR]

Yeah, I just saw that possibility and wondered why no seemed to try it in canon.

[Cochise]

The R Series is on a rail, so it's not exactly portable. Where's the P Series?

Well, both the P and the R series use rails but that doesn't necessarily mean that those aren't "somewhat" portable as well (think B.A. Baracus style implementation of the rails). The P series is "wi-fi"-enabled (originally in the Rigger sense of SR3 in SR4 the Wi-Fi part is in the rail mount of the drone) while the R series is not (there you'd have to literally hack into the rails and then defeat the command system). Both are armored wheras the Manservant isn't. You'll find the P series in either Rigger 3 Revised oder This Old Drone (SR4).

As for the prices: You looked at SR4 prices for the Manservant so you should look at SR4 prices of both the P and the R series which are 1.900¥ and 2.000¥ respectively.

But it doesn't quite stop there: While not officially published in SR4 material there's also the dedicated Ares Arms Sentry II from SR3 which was a "trailer" drone with a setup time of 2 minutes that could be equipped with pretty much any heavy weapon you can think of and came with it's own back-up generator. Think of the sentry guns in the movie Aliens: self-sustaining guns with automatic tracking (via sensor and pilot) and firing (via pilot plus autosoft). There''s nothing that would prevent you from setting it up with wires instead of Wi-Fi / conventional SR3 radio based remote control. Its original cost was 43.500¥ but given the price reduction of the Sentinel P from 32.000¥ down to 1.900¥ and 70.000¥ down to 8,500¥ on a MCT Hachiman you could reasonably well argue that a Sentry II costs between 2.600¥ and 5.300¥ plus the weapon under SR4 and the original load values would allow you to actually add the armor that this system allegedly has but is "somehow" missing in the SR3 stats.

Want to make it a bit tougher: Go with the MCT Hachiman for 8.500¥. This one comes with SR4 armor values of 8 a targeting software and could just as easily be converted to your idea of a wired interface without requiring any "hacking" of the rest, because that thing was originally built to carry and shoot ranged weaponry. Interestingly enough the SR4 writers went really out of their way to relegate this drone to the second line in SR4 by not just reducing some of its stats but removed the whole Robot Reflexes and Learning Pool entirely.

Overall I'd still not opt for your Manservant idea because that requires the same amount of leeway for setting it up in your decribed manner as "B.A. Baracus"-ing Sentinel P and R systems

[JanessaVR]

I remain skeptical of the rail-mounted units, as I just think that's less practical when you're hauling them around and want to get set up or taken down fairly quickly, but the Ares Arms Sentry II and the MCT Hachiman sound like they have some real promise. My primary issues would then be availability and cost. The Manservants are cheap and readily available, and they can handle any gun a person can. To be sure, they're not armored, but deploying them only behind full cover was my solution to that. So if you've got the money and can manage to find/purchase one through your personal arms dealer, go for the Sentry or Hachiman. If not, the Manservants are the Dollar Store knockoff that may just do the job.

[Cochise]

Well, you're more or less considering to install them in a "stationary" fashion:

• in / behind cover which they shouldn't leave due to lack of armor
• wired instead of Wi-Fi which also limits their movement
• you actually need to lay out wire for your system to work

=> They are essentially "mini"-turrets at rather fixed locations.

You can do the same with the Sentinels:

1. the drones themselves are already armored turrets that only require the rails as some form of mounting point that allows movement so that a singular drone can cover more area and can be easily returned to repair- / storage-bays. With the R-series the rails also become part of the wiring.
2. only use very short rail elements mounted to walls, ceilings or floors to allow minimal movement or simply ignore the rails entirely and just wall-/floor-/ceiling-mount those turrets in fixed strategic locations like you would with the Manservants and their firing arc will be pretty much the same or even bigger as their included armor allows for more exposure in order to get a better FoV and firing arc
3. Lay out your cabeling instead of a full rail system just like in your Manservant scenario and you're good to go

If you can have enough Manservants to build a reasonable "point defense" you'll get an equal (or larger amount) of Sentinels that has to be jerry-rigged in a similar fashion and suffers similar limitations for less (or equal) money.

[pbangarth]

If it's the "command post in the field" one is looking to defend, then setup time is an important issue.

[JanessaVR]

I would say the biggest issue is availability (if the prices are going to be roughly equal), which is going to vary considerably from table to table. The MCT Hachiman has a note that "These are still pretty rare on the shadow markets; it seems that Mitsuhama doesn’t like the idea of them getting into our hands." I imagine the Ares Sentry II is also at least a little difficult to get a hold of.

Now, some GMs will just say "Yeah, you can get pretty much whatever you want from your fixer. Just pay the listed prices." Others will actually enforce the Availability (I believe that was Street Index in SR3, but my memory of SR3 is spotty). If the former, sure, go ahead and pick up the good stuff. If the latter, remember that you can drive up to any electronics superstore and say "I need some Manservants to go, here's my credstick."

[Cochise]

I would say the biggest issue is availability (if the prices are going to be roughly equal), which is going to vary considerably from table to table.

4R or 5R at worst based on the original values from 3rd Ed. The Ares Sentry II was 9/9 were the Sentinel P was 8/8. In SR4 the Sentinel P as well as the "upgraded" R version both have 4R. This would indicate that at least there availibility values were simply halved (with no clear indication of rounding up or down). Nothing that should be too troublesome for any "Rigger" character who is getting himself into jobs where setting up the kind of point defense you're suggesting there is actually a necessity.

The MCT Hachiman has a note that "These are still pretty rare on the shadow markets; it seems that Mitsuhama doesn’t like the idea of them getting into our hands." I imagine the Ares Sentry II is also at least a little difficult to get a hold of.

The Hachiman went from "not available to non-MCT entities" in SR3 to 8F in SR4. Yes, MCT doesn't like seeing them in "our hands" (but given how the writers nerfed that thing, that's just another one of the cases where fluff and game stats - this time SR4 - simply don't align well). By comparison an Ares Sentry II should be easy to come by provided that you have a Connection for R rated weaponry and gear.

Others will actually enforce the Availability (I believe that was Street Index in SR3, but my memory of SR3 is spotty).

SR 4 doesn't use Street Index in that manner, so this leads us directly back to a rather arbitrary transitioning between editions just to fuck with players, because ...

If the former, sure, go ahead and pick up the good stuff. If the latter, remember that you can drive up to any electronics superstore and say "I need some Manservants to go, here's my credstick."

... your original idea is based on the stipulation that the GM is giving you leeway enough to

• do firmware hacking to even be able to shoot guns
• probably adding a new autosoft interpreter to also be able to use targeting software
• jerry-rigging them from WiFi-enabled to wired connection to an (also modified) "control deck" as part of the Rigger's Comlink

Yet at the same time said GM is supposed to enforce a previous edition game stat that doesn't exist in SR4 and arbitrarily set availibility beyond the reach of reasonably well connected Runners. Any GM doing something like that to me as a player would pretty much instantly lose a player.

Now here's how I see your Manservant idea overall:

1. It's a "MacGyver"-style approach for a "largely unprepared" and / or "not too well connected" Rigger character that somehow is still able and has the time to hack firmware and do the whole jerry-rigging from Wi-Fi to cable on the drones and the control deck accessory of his Comlink and then also has to worry about getting enough cable to set things up based on the location's layout
2. The more "B.A. Baracus"-style approach for a "somewhat better prepared" and / or "reasonably well connected" Rigger character is to get Sentinel Ps or Rs and use the time it took the "MacGyver"-guy to hack the firmware to outfit them with an easy to use bolt-down mechanism and then do the same type of jerry-rigging from WiFi to cable for the Sentinel Ps and to a much lesser degree the Rs and then worry about cables in the same manner as the "MacGyver"-guy.
3. A "well prepared" and "well connected" Rigger would probably go for Ares Sentry IIs (with a base setup time of 2 mins per drone including their power generators). He'd just jerry-rig them for cable connection beforehand and then just set them up wherever they are needed with the sole concern of how much cable is on the cable spool that was brought along or how much cable might have to be bought quickly depending on the location's layout.
4. The really fancy variant for the "well prepared" and "well connected" Rigger would then be to get "illegal" (F rating) Hachimans from the black market and just jerry-rig those for cable connection beforehand and then equally just worry about having the proper cable lengths availible for setup.

The main question for me remains: What type of character are we speaking about that gets themselves into jobs that require serious point defense protection with a self-firing system that includes 2+ guns but isn't well enough prepared and connected to get "proper" material and thus has to go the "MacGyver"-route?
[edit]The answer to that question might also provide some insight into why seemingly "nobody tried it in canon".

[pbangarth]

I guess it is up in the air whether this idea is good for an emplacement at a regular location. I see these guys as a kind of parallel to the expendable focus for magicians in SR3. A quick scan doesn't find such foci in SR4A or (No hisses!) SR6 main manuals, but bear with me. For a few thousand nuyen, a magician can get a boost when she figures she needs it, and then the focus is used up.

Now imagine a run where you leave a couple of these in strategic locations to deal with potential security forces. If they don't show up, you keep your drones. If trouble comes, for a few thousand nuyen you get a warning and a chance to delay the security while you get out. A surveillance drone could give the warning, but probably wouldn't delay the security forces.

Easily replaceable, and better than leaving the street sam behind to cover the retreat.

[JanessaVR]

Cochise:

Actually, that kind of describes one of our GMs. As far as he’s concerned, Big Brother is watching and if we’re doing illegal arms deals, we have to roleplay calling in for those and then picking them up without tipping off the police. But if we want to tinker to our heart’s content in the privacy of our workshop, no problem.

Another GM (sadly deceased) would handwave all that. If we weren’t asking for nukes, then no problem and our personal fixer would get us pretty much whatever we wanted.

Every GM brings their own quirks to the game. The MCT Hachimans definitely seem to be the gold standard here, but we might not always be able to get a hold of those. In that instance, MacGyvering some expendable troops that can use any tools or weapons we can might just work out.


pbangarth:

That’s what I’m talking about. Sometimes the Dollar Store knockoff is the right tool for the job.

[Kagetenshi]

Surveillance drones tied to wires leading to grenade pins? Possibly chemical grenades if you want area denial, depending on the dispersal rules for your edition.

~J

[JanessaVR]

Surveillance drones tied to wires leading to grenade pins? Possibly chemical grenades if you want area denial, depending on the dispersal rules for your edition.

That sounds like a neat little trick and I'm totally going to steal it. The Cyberspace Designs Dragonfly (SR4 Arsenal, pp. 117-118) seems perfect for the job.

[Kren Cooper]

Personally I'd go with it, but riff off of some of the things Cochise said.

For pretty much autonomous droids, interacting in the chaotic environment of a house with potentially children and pets, there would have to be layer after layer of safeguards and protection to protect the company from accidents and lawsuits. Overcoming those would/should be a serious obstacle, in my view.

I'd end up with probably a multi-level approach, with iterative testing allowing you to overcome safeguards and work down the stack of layered defences and firmware updates, software changes and so on, gradually zeroing on on the configuration that allows them to be combat capable.

I'd also steer towards a "Home Alone" style of assault methods (but with Certificate 18 results, not PG). By which I mean - you've not managed to crack the code and firmware blocks yet to allow it fire guns... but you have managed to put in a hack that changes the sensor feed so that instead of reporting a Lone Star Officer with Peaked cap as the thing visible, it instead reports a saucepan and raw pasta. At which point the droid which was positioned behind the front door is *more than happy* to pour boiling water over it... then the ball is back in the players court to come up with innovative and novel ways of turning domestic activity into lethal combat for humour and drama. The leafblower isn't dangerous, and can be aimed at small children and dogs without harm. Just take out the bit of code that notices you attaching the propane tank to it and turning it into a flamethrower.... that kind of thing.

Once you have the procedure down pat, and the list of changes made, parts used etc - that maybe took several months of game downtime / activity to actually work out - then it's probably childs play to do that to the next batch of butler droids and quickly build and maintain your army. At least until the manufacturer changes the BIOS/firmware/codebase/parts, and you have to start again (but from a better position, probably).