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JaronK
post May 24 2004, 11:54 PM
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Okay, right, a few more questions.

1. With Clairvoyance and Clairaudience, where can this be cast? I'm not sure if I can cast it anywhere within Force X Magic Rating, and then see/hear from that position, or if you can pick any location anywhere and then from that position hear/see to a range of Force X Magic, or what have you. How does this work?

2. With Analyze Truth, what happens if I get more than one sucess? Does it tell me what the truth is every time the target lies?

3. If I cast Detect Object, does that object get to make a resistance test?

4. Where does it say what the range is for Area of Effect spells?

Thanks in advance.

JaronK
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John Campbell
post May 25 2004, 12:22 AM
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1. Clairvoyance and Clairaudience, like almost all of the other Detection spells, are actually touch-range spells, and are cast on the person to receive the new sense. The subject can then use the sense to see/hear anywhere within the (Force × Magic) meter range.

2. Nothing special happens if you get more than one success. Multiple successes make the spell harder to resist, though... an involuntary target gets to resist with Willpower vs. the Force of the spell, and if you don't get more successes than they do, the spell doesn't work on them. Analyze Truth won't tell you what the truth is if the target lies; just that they're lying. (And even then, only if they know that they're lying. It won't detect false statements that the speaker believes to be true.)

3. No. Inanimate objects very seldom get to resist magic.

4. Base effect radius for most AE spells is equal to Magic in meters. It can be expanded or reduced by withholding dice from the Sorcery test, though. It's on... um... -checks- ... SR3 p.181.
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Kanada Ten
post May 25 2004, 12:49 AM
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2. The number of successes decides how accurately you determine the lies from the truth.

1 net success: Something there is false
2 net successes: Degree of falseness
4 net successes: Number of false statements
6 net successes: What parts are false

4. Range is almost always LOS for AoE spells, though you could make some Touch range.
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JaronK
post May 25 2004, 01:29 AM
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Hmm. Makes Clairvoyance rather odd then... I've got it at force 3, but 18 meters doesn't seem all that useful, especially when you could just go astral and take a peek.

JaronK
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Kanada Ten
post May 25 2004, 01:35 AM
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You can make an extended range version of it with an increased drain of plus one level and a distance of F*M*10. But your really thinking too limited on Clairvoyance. For one, you can cast it on anyone. For two, you can read things. For three your not vulnerable to astral attacks. Plus, you don't have to be able to projects.
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JaronK
post May 25 2004, 04:19 AM
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How do you get an increased range version? Or is that in another book?

JaronK
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Kanada Ten
post May 25 2004, 04:23 AM
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Rules for spell design are in MitS and they include the Extended Range option.
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JaronK
post May 25 2004, 04:24 AM
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Man, it isn't easy to make this character without that book. Is it just +1 Damage level on drain for *10 range on all detection spells?

JaronK
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Kanada Ten
post May 25 2004, 04:43 AM
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Yes, Drain changes only by increasing the Damage Level by plus one. If the Drain is raised above Deadly then the Power is increased by +2.

Check this out: Dvixen's Spell Designer. But remember, it is not a replacement for MitS.
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JaronK
post May 25 2004, 04:46 AM
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Thanks kindly.

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Eyeless Blond
post May 25 2004, 09:44 PM
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I just had a thought. All of those area detection spells are actually area spells, aren't they? Then couldn't you just withhold one die from the Sorcery test to increase the area, and thus the range of the effect? Of course, detection spells have a much wider base area than other area effect spells (Force*Magic in meters as opposed to Magic in meters), so personally I'd rule that you get an extra (Force) in meters for every die withheld, rather than just one meter. What do you guys think?
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Sargrak
post May 25 2004, 09:54 PM
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Fine. I'd allow it.
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Zephania
post May 26 2004, 05:33 AM
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Thats strange though as it makes clairvoyance less usefull than a set of binos. I'd always assumed that because it affected sight and was a line of sight spell, if you could see it, then you could see it really well...

The spell isn't cast on the object being viewed, it's cast on the person doing the viewing if you can see what I mean?

The same with clairaudience.
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Kanada Ten
post May 26 2004, 05:39 AM
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Zephania, I don't follow.

Almost all Detection Spells are cast on a subject who is then granted the hypersense. Clairvoyance allows the spell's subject to see past walls, underground, in the locked box, and so on. Having the range of LOS means that the caster can make anyone in his or her field of view the spell's subject.

MitS expressly states that Detection Spell subjects must be voluntary (though they could do the same for Illusion Spells that have separate subjects and targets, they didn't). One could even make a voluntary Detect Life spell that would have lower drain but only detect people and living creatures that wanted to be found (such as those trapped under rubble).

Am I missing your point?
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Thistledown
post May 26 2004, 06:03 AM
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Everyone I've played with has said that for clair___, you specify any point in your LOS, and it gives you the field of sences for the given area rating from that point. This allows you to cast it in a hallway to see around a corner, through a keyhole to give you a better view of the room, etc.
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Eyeless Blond
post May 26 2004, 06:40 AM
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Well, being a detection spell, it's both stronger and weaker than you suggest. Think of it for a moment as creating a magical "eye" of sorts that you can see out of. This eye can travel literally anywhere in the spell's area of effect (base radius = Force*Magic Att. in meters). This means that you are not limited by LOS--that is, you can look/hear through walls, around corners, underground, whatever, and you can use your natural and cybernetic vision/hearing mods through it, *but* you are limited in range.
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Glyph
post May 26 2004, 06:48 AM
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Actually, Clairvoyance is limited to sight only, as Clairvoyance is limited to sounds only. The range is good enough for the primary purpose of the spell - to do things like read a page on an open book halfway across the room on the Yakuza boss's desk, to peek behind that steel vault door leading to the restricted area, to see if any guards are lurking behind the ferroconcrete wall your team is preparing to climb over, and so on. Used properly, it is a very viable part of a spellcaster's arsenal, one that doesn't leave you as vulnerable as astral projection does.

You do want it at a high Force, because, like most Detection spells, it is resisted by anyone who is potentially a target of it. So, for example, a Force: 1 Clairvoyance spell might see into the guardroom but not see any of the four guards in it.
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Xirces
post May 26 2004, 08:02 AM
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QUOTE (Glyph)
You do want it at a high Force, because, like most Detection spells, it is resisted by anyone who is potentially a target of it. So, for example, a Force: 1 Clairvoyance spell might see into the guardroom but not see any of the four guards in it.

Does this mean that every potential target gets a resistance test? So in the example above there could be a guard sat on a stool reading a book - the book and stool could pass the resistance tests and the guard fail - you see a guy sitting in mid-air with his hands out.

Hope you don't want to read something off a computer screen (technological item). The resistance test kind of makes the spell useless as you've no idea whether what you're seeing is in any way accurate.
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Eyeless Blond
post May 26 2004, 09:03 AM
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QUOTE (Glyph)
Actually, Clairvoyance is limited to sight only, as Clairvoyance is limited to sounds only.  The range is good enough for the primary purpose of the spell - to do things like read a page on an open book halfway across the room on the Yakuza boss's desk, to peek behind that steel vault door leading to the restricted area, to see if any guards are lurking behind the ferroconcrete wall your team is preparing to climb over, and so on.  Used properly, it is a very viable part of a spellcaster's arsenal, one that doesn't leave you as vulnerable as astral projection does.

Nowhere in the spell description, nor anywhere elve, does it say that Clairvoyance is limited to line of sight, nor is Clairaudiance limited to "line of hearing," whatever that may be. They're kinda gimpy spells if that's so, anyway.

QUOTE
You do want it at a high Force, because, like most Detection spells, it is resisted by anyone who is potentially a target of it.  So, for example, a Force: 1 Clairvoyance spell might see into the guardroom but not see any of the four guards in it.

That's not true at all. See, like nearly all Detection spells, Clairvoyance/audience is cast on a willing target--the person gaining the sense. You are not casting the spell on anyone/everyone the target sees; only the person gaining the sense. Since the people/objects under surveilence aren't actually being targeted by the spell, they don't get a Spell Resistence test. It's rather like the difference between active and passive sensors; you can detect and attempt to block an active sensor because the sensor is emitting something, like radio waves, for you to detect. Passive sensors don't. *Most* Detection spells--Clairvoyance/audience included--are generally passive spells, in the same way.

Of course, you still want it at a high Force, because it bounds the area in which you can make the "virtual sensor" of sorts.
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John Campbell
post May 26 2004, 05:06 PM
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QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ May 26 2004, 05:03 AM)
That's not true at all. See, like nearly all Detection spells, Clairvoyance/audience is cast on a willing target--the person gaining the sense. You are not casting the spell on anyone/everyone the target sees; only the person gaining the sense. Since the people/objects under surveilence aren't actually being targeted by the spell, they don't get a Spell Resistence test.

They do, actually. I posted this over in the Cataloguing thread, but I think it bears repeating over here:

Detection spells have separate subjects and targets. The subject is person who does the detecting, and upon whom the spell is cast (and who does not have to be the caster). The target is the person or thing being detected. The caster has to have LoS, minimum (almost all of the Detection spells are actually touch-range... I think Mindlink is the only exception) to the subject of the spell. The subject has to be willing, so Resistance Tests for the subject are irrelevant. The target gets a Resistance Test, though, if they are capable of making one (inanimate objects aren't and don't). And, as you correctly point out, neither the caster nor the subject has to have LoS to the target.
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Eyeless Blond
post May 26 2004, 05:23 PM
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Yeah, I noticed. That is quite possibly the dumbest rule I've ever seen; because of it I don't think I'm ever going to bother using a Detection spell other than maybe Catalog. Most of them were pathetically gimped to begin with, most requiring either three to four successes to even be reliable or only giving you a +1 bonus per 2 successes. Being resisted spells, particularly with such high base TNs, makes them all practically useless.

(Edit): No, wait, Catalog is pretty much useless too. You need 3 successes against a base TN of 6 to use it without fear of the GM glesully feeding you misleading information anyway. That means at least 18 dice to gaurontee a ~60% chance of the GM not immediately trying to screw you over with false info. No thanks.
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Zazen
post May 26 2004, 06:01 PM
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QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
(Edit): No, wait, Catalog is pretty much useless too. You need 3 successes against a base TN of 6 to use it without fear of the GM glesully feeding you misleading information anyway. That means at least 18 dice to gaurontee a ~60% chance of the GM not immediately trying to screw you over with false info. No thanks.

Since when does a successful spell give you false information?
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BitBasher
post May 26 2004, 06:06 PM
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Er yeah, spells that would give you information with 100% accuracy would be a heinous advantage. Information is king.
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Frag-o Delux
post May 26 2004, 06:34 PM
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QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)

Nowhere in the spell description, nor anywhere elve, does it say that Clairvoyance is limited to line of sight, nor is Clairaudiance limited to "line of hearing," whatever that may be. They're kinda gimpy spells if that's so, anyway.


Eyeless if you are implying that because in the spell description it doesn't say you can't hear things with clairvoyance or you can't see things with clairaudience, so that means you can. I think you have missed it. Clairvoyance only describes things that have to do with vision and clairaudience only talks about things that have to do with hearing. Not to mention 2 seperate spells should imply one is for hearing things far away and the other for seeing things far away.

Definition of clairvoyance

Definition of clairaudience

Quiet easily understood, 2 seplls, 2 diferent efffects.

Why do some people insist every thing must be written you can do X or you can't do Y, if it not written out exactly it means I can do it? Use a little thought. Not trying to sound harh, but 2 seperate spells right next to each other with 2 different descriptions and the names of the spells so easily searchable in a dictionary should let you know what they are. Not to mention detection generally only offer one new sense, especially for a Moderate drain.
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Zephania
post May 26 2004, 06:59 PM
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I didn't realise that clairvoyance allowed you to see through walls or round corners, I just understood it as magical binoculars.

Can someone clear this up because if it does what Kanada Ten says then it's awsome and top of my shopping list.
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