[X] My Assistant

[JaronK]

No-name is right. Mass Production exists for a reason... those costs are distributed over a large number of barrels produced. Generally speaking, the more you create, the less you pay in overhead per item (not always true, but mostly so). As an example, using pretty random numbers, it might cost you $5,000 to make and maintain a facility capable of churning out 100,000 barrels of gasoline per year, where it might cost $6,000 for 200,000 barrels.

JaronK

[Ninj]

Yeah. The main reason for this question was if I wanted to create chemicals for myself and my runs what would the raw materials costs be.

I don't plan on mass producing any specific compounds for any large markets. Maybe a little on the side during downtimes to make some extra cash here and there, but that's it.

I like the 5 - 10% cost rule in the Cannon Companion after looking it up the info, so I will pass that on to my GM and see what he thinks about it.

[Moonstone Spider]

@Noname Hero:
I'm perfectly aware of the traditional model of economics. I also know from personal experience that what you're saying is nonsense. Why?

You ask who I know that makes their own bread, cheese, beer, soap, or toilet paper? I do. I make my own bread, twice a week. It costs me 44 cents a pound to produce and I use the expensive organic flours. To buy even a tasteless nutrition-free loaf of white bread would cost me 99 cents, 11 cents more than cost (Plus an additional 8 cents tax, making it over 25% more). To buy whole wheat would be around twice that. To buy organic bread, equivalent to what I make, would cost easily $4.50 a loaf (U.S.). So you see, it is more cost efficient to do so, vastly more. I get bread for 0.88 instead of 4.50.

I also raise small livestock (rabbits) and organic vegetables on aprox 5 acres of land in my spare time. The rabbits require about 4 pounds of feed to produce 1 pound of meat, the feed costs $11.99 (Plus Tax) for 50 pounds, but I supplement it by half with hay cut by myself, with a scythe. It takes perhaps 10 minutes a day to feed 30 rabbits. Thus my feed cost, per pound of meat, is about 6 dollars per 25 pounds of meat.

In the store rabbit costs 7.99 a pound. Damn, once again the small-producer wins by an absurd margin. And the total time I've spent? 10 minutes a day for the rabbits, half an hour a week for bread.

I produce aprox. 2000 pounds of vegetables a year. It costs me $1000 for greenhouse materials, frames, etc. I still save a lot on some things because my rabbits supply me with all the manure I need. In the store vegetables are rarely 50 cents a pound, that's a red letter day sale. Organic vegetables are rarely less than two or three dollars. Seems that, as usual, the small time user wins out.

My psychologist makes his own beer. If you sent most American Beers to a chemist they'd probably write back and say "Your horse has Diabeters." So everybody prefers his, which is comparable to german beers, which cost around 10 dollars for a sixpack. He sells his for 50 cents a bottle, and sells all he can make (Liquor laws reduce his output considerable, he'd make and sell 5 times as much without them).

Now let's talk soap. I don't make it myself. A friend of mine does. I buy extremely powerful, non-chemical organic lye soaps for a dollar a bar. That's just as expensive as soaps in the store, but I've never seen organic soaps, which would certainly be more than Ivory.

My Grandfather is retired but still raises cattle in a fallow field. He expends 1 hour a day, and nets 6000 dollars a year. That means that he's making almost 17 dollars an hour by walking out into a field and checking for parasites.

This year I'm expanding my own operations into honey. For an intial expendature of aprox 200 dollars (and no more expendatures for about 20 years), and a grand total of perhaps 5 hours a year, I will be netting myself 150 pounds of honey a year. The going rate for honey in stores is 8 dollars a pound. I think I'll have them beat my first year.

I know several people who sew (I sell some of them rabbit skins for trim, raking in a pure gravy profit over the meat).

I haven't purchased a baked good in years. Last month my Mother made a Cheesecake for our family get-together for a total of 3 dollars worth of goods and half an hour of time. An inferior cheesecake in the store cost 14 dollars.

In truth, nobody I know makes their own toilet paper, nor do any of us make cheese.

You ask why more people don't do these things. It has nothing to do with efficiency and everything to do with your corrupt worthless American Government, which has consistently made laws to stop small producers and help the big-guys, who pay senators bribes and contribute to Presidential election campaigns. But I live on the Sac and Fox reservation, where the leadership isn't so easily bribed and doesn't care who the President is. And so the laws don't prohibit small farming, don't throw all sorts of barriers in the way of a rabbit breeder, don't illegalize the making of beer (Although, as noted, it is regulated).

So you see, your theory of economics is based entirely on a warped system powered by megacorporate greed, because I know from many years of personal experience that it's cheaper to work on a small scale.

[Kagetenshi]

Your point that Noname was incorrect is true, however as soon as the item you're making becomes complex, economies of scale start applying like mad. One person can make an abacus cost-effectively. What about a pocket calculator? Suddenly, it's actually impossible to create from raw materials without a massive investment.

Everything you mention has low initial costs.

~J

[Lucyfersam]

Your rant against the "warped system powered by megacorporate greed" is a little off base Moonstone. First off you left out a few important costs from your equations, the biggest of which is the cost of your 5 acres of land, which is something not many people have. Second, you talk about scything your own hay for your rabbit feed, but don't count the time required to do so into the feeding time. I don't have any idea what bread recipe or yeast your using to be able to make bread in 15 minutes, as I occasionally make my own bread and it takes a good sight longer than that.

Overall, in very select situations, a small scale production can save a bit of money, but the fact of the matter is that it's not megacorporate greed that drives the mass-production market, but the fact that people are willing and even happy to pay a wee bit extra to not have to do that work, so they can live in a city and not have to worry about making their own food, clothes, etc.

Further, the industrial market, which is what most chemicals are produced for. operates in a much different fashion than the consumer market, as at least in mature markets it requires a much lower profit margin and much higher production levels than average consumer markets.

Now, some of the prices for chemicals in Shadowrun are completely absurd (such as the fugu prices, I work with TTX, as do a huge number of bio labs around the world, and I guarantee they don't pay 60,000 or it), so it would be definitely worth while to look up real prices for these chemicals rather than just using book prices. In chemistry, your not going to save a huge amount by making it yourself, the important part of making things yourself is getting them without street index or legal hassle, as they are very tightly monitored.

[Moonstone Spider]

I'll agree Kagatenshi, but the thing is, Chemicals can be produced at home with a handful of test tubes, common household goods found in the store next door, and a bunsen burner. In other words, the same scale as the items I've mentioned. And since this is a discussion of chemicals, and not a runner manufacturing his own computer, my example is perfectly applicable while the example of a calculator is comparing apples to oranges.

@Lucyfursam:
You must not have read my post properly because I did indeed include the time of scything hay for my rabbits. It only takes two swings at an area we keep unmowed and easy to scythe, as the Rabbits are kept in numbers low enough to be fed easily (2 Breeding pair will let a family of four eat rabbit twice a week for life). That's all part of the 15 minute morning warm up. The land was relatively inexpensive where we live, has been in the family for years, and even if you live in an apartment there's no reason not to make your own bread and soap, nor to have a container garden and get produce cheaper and better than the store sells. Most people are simply lazy bastards.

As for the bread, I count only my own time, not the time it raises (when I'm doing something else) nor the time it bakes (When I'm doing something else.)

I also disagree that these are select situations. These are most situations, only rarely can we not build something. The family and co-op I belong too are tireless in evading the corporations and getting true independence. We're researching making our own wind mills to produce electricity, and I've spoken with an elderly gentleman in England who modified his car to run off Methane that is produced from the excreta of his Chickens. I've got the methane digester down, and as soon as my cousin and brother, both of whom are mechanics, can get the cars properly modified to burn methane (I understand the only serious change is to alter the Pistols for much higher compression) we'll be free of the gas companies, and free of the electric companies. We can tan our own leather, build our own houses, forge our own metal implements. The only things that are really too complex for a properly run co-op are such as computers and telephone systems, which are, quite honestly, beyond us unless we wish to live like the Amish.

And so, when you're paying 5 bucks a gallon for milk this year due to the inefficiencies of megacorp mass-production, and I'm paying 15 cents thanks to a nubian goat who eats weeds in a fallow field and enriches the soil with her droppings, I'll remember you and your "Wee bit Extra" and laugh at how you're paying 33 times more because you want to live in a city and not go to the trouble of spending half an hour a day milking.

[Kagetenshi]

Depends on the chemical. If you'd like to try making Astrolite without a clean room, be my guest. I'm just going to be out of town that day.

~J

[nezumi]

I've come up with three chemicals from the veterinary world that I think other runners might find useful, or at least want to look at. PLEASE give comments. I'm not a vet, I don't know how these work, nor have I tested them for game balance.



Ketamine (often diazepam-ketamine (DK) or mixed with Xylazine, nicknamed "K" or "Special K" on the street.) - potent for its quantity, about .1mg/kg/hr. This is in the same family as PCP, and so unfortunately sometimes causes psychotropic side effects. About $10 a dose, with an SI of 3 and an availability of 4/2 days.

This takes 20 seconds before any effects can be seen. After that causes 4S stun every minute for 6 minutes. It does not carry over into physical damage except as the result of an overdose (more than 6 normal doses). In addition, it causes euphoria, psychotropic side effects, hallucinations, a feeling of disconnect and a complete loss of pain sensation, similar to PCP. The user gains 6 effective levels of the adept power pain resistance for 30 minutes (+10 minutes per additional dose). The user also suffers a +4 to all perception based actions and +1 modifier to all other actions. The drug may be used recreationally, in which case it the dose is quartered. All other effects are halved (round up), except the stun damage, which becomes 2M. (These rules are only for injection vector.)




Tiletamine (often tiletamine-zolazepam or TZ) - Dose is 5.5 mg/kg. Vomiting and difficulties breathing are not unusual side effects, and so the individual should be prepared for them. This is also in the family as PCP, but its effects are less than Ketamine. Takes approximately 4 minutes to take full effect. $15 a dose with an SI of 3 and an availability of 4/3 days.

This takes 40 seconds before any effects can be seen. After that causes 3S stun every minute for 6 minutes. It does not carry over into physical damage except as the result of an overdose (more than 4 normal doses). In addition, it causes euphoria, psychotropic side effects, hallucinations, a feeling of disconnect and a complete loss of pain sensation, similar to PCP. The user gains 2 effective levels of the adept power pain resistance for 30 minutes (+10 minutes per additional dose). The user also suffers a +2 to all perception based actions and +1 modifier to all other actions. The drug may be used recreationally, in which case it the dose is quartered. All other effects are halved (round up), except the stun damage, which becomes 3L. (These rules are only for injection vector.)



TKX (tiletamine–zolazepam, ketamine hydrochloride, xylazine hydrochloride) - this combination is approximately 80 times more powerful than ketamine alone, requiring approximately .023ml/kg/hr. It is meant mostly for larger animals, such as bears and leopards. A normal dose takes approximately 5 minutes to take effect. $50 a dose, but can be easily mixed if all ingredients are on hand. SI of 4, availability of 6/3 weeks. It should be noted that two of the primary components are related to PCP, so we're dealing with many of the same side effects. However, its hallucinogenic effects are limited compared to it's analgesic effects, and so it is significantly less popular on the streets.

This takes 20 seconds before any effects can be seen. After that causes 6S stun every minute for 6 minutes. It does not carry over into physical damage except as the result of an overdose (more than 5 normal doses). In addition, it causes euphoria, psychotropic side effects, hallucinations, a feeling of disconnect and a complete loss of pain sensation, similar to PCP. The user gains 4 effective levels of the adept power pain resistance for 30 minutes (+10 minutes per additional dose). The user also suffers a +4 to all perception based actions and +3 modifier to all other actions. The drug is rarely used recreationally, due to the availability of better altneratives.


(To beat a very dead horse, it's a *LOT* cheaper to brew your own beer than buy it from a manufacturer. I paid $100 in equipment and am currently brewing 9 gallons of cider and medium quality stout. At 128 ounces in a gallon, and 12 ounces in a bottle, that makes 96 bottles of beer on the wall, so about a $1 a bottle. Out of that initial $100, $80 was one time costs. The next 3 gallons of cider will cost $2, 6 gallons of beer for $20 or less.)

Addendum, those looking for more chems, feel free to check:

http://rpg.divnull.com/srun/chemistry.html

[nezumi]

Another question... Looking at SR3 and M&M, I have found no prices for narcojet (or gamma scopolamine). Doing a google search on narcojet, I found the following:

AVAIL: 12/24 Days
COST: 400 =Y=
SI: 5.5

Judging from the content, I believe this is 2nd edition. Is the price actually $400? Is that for 10 doses (like most ammo is), or only for one? Either way, that is fairly pricey!!

Any comments on this? Does anyone else in the world use drugs in their games, or am I the only one looking for a ranged non-lethal method of taking someone down?

[Platinum]

Narcojet was the name of the weapon in the SSG (I don't have my copy here at work but I am pretty sure.) You do not need to buy rounds for it, but you do need a solvent like DMSO to absorb.

The chemicals are expensive.... 400 would be per dose. Atropine and Cyanide were also expensive. Prices went down after second edition.

No you are not the only one to use chemicals and other non-lethal to take people down. My wife's favorite weapon is her shock gloves. There are many mages that are passive and also look for other non-lethal solutions. My character uses gel rounds more than anything. (after all ... I have nothing personal against them)

[nezumi]

Narcojet is listed by name as being a chemical that causes 6D stun on page 250 of the SR3 manual (with no price). I do know it's also a gun that loads DMSO (with no suggested accomanying chemical).

SSG you say? I'm guessing you mean the Street Samurai's Guide or some such, not the Sprawl Survival Guide... No... Nothing there. Thanks for the response though. I'm going crazy trying to find prices for knock-out agents and I'm stunned at how poorly SR deals with it. *sigh*

[Platinum]

I never really noticed it before..... I just assumed it was there....

Here is what I am going to do....
take the price of a tranq patch, at whatever rating you need, then add 10 :nuyen: for either the dart or the dmso. That would be the cost per dose. It just gives you a different vector. Use the slap patch rules.

[hyzmarca]

The DMSO gun is called the Ares Supersquirt. The Nacrojet Pistol/Rifle is a brand named series of airpowered dart guns deliver the patented Narcojet toxin. It fired Nacrojet darts. It was in the Steet Samurai Catalog. There is no Narcojet gun in SR3. Instead Nacrojet toxin can be used in generic dart guns. Persumable, the corporation that produced Narcojet discontinued the properitary dartguns.

In the Street Samurai Catalog it was 200 :nuyen: for darts. I'm not sure if that was per dart or per 10 darts. The weight listed was for 10 darts.

I don't beleive that a price for Nacrojet toxin is listed anywhere in SR3.

[Tiralee]

Personally, I'd run with the 5+ 1d6% cost rule.

Let's face it, not too many runners out there with a Chemistry skill 6 and the Cyber chemical analyser/GS (God, I'd like to know who in hell thought up THAT little item. Have they even SEEN a full-rig Analytical lab?!) with the inbuilt program of 8 is not going to use it to make soap or washing detergent.

Well, the guy I'm running with might, but that's another story.

Your average runner is going to use it to make:
1: Drugs
2: Explosives (Bonus if they have the demolition skill?)
3: "Knock out" compounds.

If they're willing to fork out 10k (minimum) for a "chemistry kit" (A couple of staged evaporators, condensors, hot plate, labcoat and safety glasses) they can try and make some "gear" with it.
Most SR-illegal chemicals are very similar (Apart from the sexy ones like Jazz and Kamikaze) to the usual Cold-and-Flu/Insecticide bases.

If the player is willing to REALLY splash out and buy a decent setup (50-100k) they can build any goddamn thing they want. Honestly, they can. When I was (IRL) testing for chemical residues in fruit juices, I realised I had a perfect setup for pseudoephedrine/methamphetamine (Crystal meth to the yanks out there) manufacture. Hell, with the various solvent I had on hand, the junk would have actually been properly made.
No I didn't - I like my ass the shape it is now, and not like it would be after 20 years in PTITAP.

So, with a Uni-level awareness (6) of chemistry (No, not a chemist either - very weird degree) and the right equipment, you can make a lot of things quite cheaply in the Shadowrealm.

[ Spoiler ]

Yes, I know how to make plastique. I learnt it off of Dad when he was showing me how to remove tree stumps. Napalm? Give me some high brix semi-liquid, welding electrodes and something flammable in hydrocarbon. Nerve gas? A couple of drums of insecticide, acetone and a few other little presents and you've got a whole lotta Green-ring-type fun. I can also honestly claim to know more about food than anyone else in this forum, professional chefs included.

Rather than "Better living through chemistry", it should be "basic living through chemistry". Most chemical processes are Ingredients in -> Products + Waste products out

SO - what are you going to do with the stuff that doesn't work?
Disposal is going to be an absolute bitch - the sewer mutants don't want it, the shaman in your team are going to stunball you to death once they find out and it's not like you can hide it under the bed?

Point to consider.
Houserule: All failures produce "toxic gunk" that must be got rid of. And since most of the "fun" stuff will have a TN of 8 (Long explaination, don't want to go into it here) your budding mad scientists will raise the ire of any anti-dumping group you care to name.

And if, IF, your players insist in becoming the next hot drug barons though, throw in undercut organised crime, Corrupt cops and greedy gangers.

Long story, 5+ 1D6% of purchased item = raw ingredient cost.
Gotta get rid of the wastes somehow.
Expect to be rumbled if you don't keep moving/buy off the cops/crime rings/gangs.
You will make your shamen cry.

-Tir

[Platinum]

[Ancient History]

[Platinum]

where?..... I spent an hour last night looking for it.

[Ancient History]

Check the toxins in the GM section. The pistol itself was in the SSC, but I'm pretty damn sure the chemical was in the toxins section.

[SL James]

The Squirt appeared in Shadowtech (p.92, same as DMSO) and had LP range. Corp Sec Handbook introduced the SuperSquirt II (LP) and Cascade rifle (SMG or Shotgun with choke 2 setting).

Narcoject Pistol and Rifle, and rounds are in SSC (62).

The Narcoject compound appears in SR1 (147), SR2 (186), and SR3 (250) core books in the Beyond the Shadows chapter, Diseases and Toxins subchapter. There is no cost listed for it in the books. BTW, the damage code for Narcoject is 6D Stun (SR3, 250). Attacker successes don't increase the damage, but every 2 successes on the target's Body Test reduce the damage by 1 level (SR3, 249-50). The attack/dodge test works the same as described above.

Narcoject is 150Y/dose (M&M, 158 - next to where Neuro-Stun VIII should be according to the errata, which is btw 20Y/dose).

Dart rounds are 200Y/10 rds (CC, 118).

[Platinum]

so frustrating.... I knew it had to be somewhere ... the index was no help.
been years since I have read the thing. thanks guys.


The rules I was using were for slap patches ... my bad.

[SL James]

Yeah, it only took my about ... half an hour and tearing through my entire SR library. Clearly, it is not something anyone put much thought into since you'd need at least 2 books to use it (SR3 and M&M for damage and cost, and CC if you want it in dart form).

Now then, if you'll excuse me I have a mess to clean up.

[nezumi]

Thanks a ton for all the help, guys.

[Lindt]

Wait... I make beer, and bread. And it does save me money (why pay 6:50 for a six pack when for 20 bucks worth of grains and yeast I can make 5 gallons...)

[hyzmarca]

Well, with beer there are alcohol taxes to consider. These taxes are the reason for high prices. They are also the reason why moonshining is illegal.

[nezumi]

Hey, a fellow brewer. I just put my 6 gallons of stout into secondary fermentation. Now I just need to find 98 bottles for my 9 gallons of assorted booze.

But yes, a good chunk of the cost of alcohol is taxes. I doubt you could make bread for significantly less than it costs at the store, especially if you factor in the value of your own time. My beer is coming out to about $.30 a bottle for thick stout (normally closer to $1.30), but it's taken me at least three hours so far of work, and I expect to spend a few more before it's ready. Ultimately, mass producing (as disgusting as it is with such artistic endeavors as alcohol) is going to be cheaper wholesale than making it yourself. The only point where you begin to make some money off your efforts is when the store marks up the price significantly and with taxes.