Elemental Manipulation Question, EleMan Spells and Combat Pools Options

[Clank]

Hi, first time here and wondering if I could ask a question.

I can use dice from my Magic pool on an elemental manipulation spell, like Fireball, but I was wondering if I can use some dice from my Combat pool since you make a ranged attack when you cast the spell (you actually have to aim it like a weapon). The book says you can only affect magic spells with your magic pool and I can understand that (like if I increased the area of a spell by reducing the dice I roll and supplemented that with Spell Pool dice), but what if I'm making an attack roll? Granted the attack is magical in the case of Fireball, but there's a physical action (having to roll a 4+ b/c your aiming the thing). Any help would be... well, helpful. :) I mean it would be great if I could use some cambat dice on the attack and save my magic pool for drain, but that might be a little too twinkish.


Also, is there any benefit to casting elemental manipulation spells? I had an elementalist concept for a character (conjured elementals and has EleMan spells), but I'm losing out; my friends all think a mage without the power- and mana- spells aren't worth anything since EleMan spells can be dodged and the power/mana spells can't and on average your TN's are gonna be 3's for your typical goon and for your nemesis NPC, it's better to have a 5/6+ TN that can't be dodged, than a 4+ that can. I've been telling them that the EleMan spells have secondary effects and that they can affect people you can't normally see (like Fireball can reach around corners and powerball can't), but they don't buy it. I've had to spend Karma on ManaBolt and PowerBall just to make myself useful. Am I wrong in liking the Elemental Manipulation spells, or am I just wasting my time on them?

[GunnerJ]

I wouldn't allow combat pool for elm. manips. But houserule as you like.

As to your second issue: average TNs of 3 for power and mana bolts? Just how kind is your GM? Somehow, my combat shaman always ended up fighting the most willful people ever, as my base TNs for stunbolt or manabolt were always in the 4-8 range; forget using powerbolt, there were too many orks and trolls to make it worthwhile.* And that's before we account for Sheilding or background count.

The elemental manipulation spell's main advantage is that it works just like a magic gun. Normal combat spells fizzle if the target matches the caster's successes, but targets of elem. manips. have to stage the sucker down. Plus, your base TN before mods never varies. In addition, those secondary effects can be VERY useful. Lightning ignores half impact armor. Acid destroys armor. There's a whole slew more listed in MitS.

*And BTW, you can tell your fellow players to ditch powerbolt and manabolt, because stunbolt is the only way to go. There's no reason at all to use manabolt over stunbolt, and only in rare situations is powerbolt useful, and the drain's lower.

[BitBasher]

Or the target has a pain editor so ignores stun damage and kills you for trying :D

[Clank]

The EleMan Spell's drain is worse than the stun/mana/power spells, so unless I wanna die, I end up casting a reduced spell, like a 6M Ball Lightning spell, which has a drain of what, 4D (it's F+1, DL+2, right)? Even so isn't Stunbolt/ball resisted by Will? Doesn't that mean is almost useless against Mages who want a high will for drain? I ended up taking a power spell and a mana spell to fight mages and samurai, respectively. Having secondary effects are cool, but 1)the force of the spell has to be atleast twice the resistance rating to affect it (mentioned under sorcery tests errata), and if you do you have to roll higher than the Obj. Rests, rating on 2d6 (mentioned somewhere in SR3; sorry I don't have the book near me). Basically, unless I'm interpreting this waaayyy incorrectly, I'll never affect a computer with a secondary effect (it's a highly processed item and I can't remember, but I thought the resistance rating for that was in the double digits). If my numbers are wrong, please correct me.

[Eyeless Blond]

Of course the drain is worse; you're doing more with it. Take, for instance, Acid Stream. By casting a Force-6 Serious version of Acid Stream, you have to take 4D Drain (3D if you use a fetish, which you really should for E-Ms anyway.) If you hit someone, they resist 6S damage+successes from the acid, not modified by armor or armor mors unless someone has chemseals, and if they don't stage it all the way to nothing they have +4 to *all* TNs for the rest of the turn. Then there's secondary effects; if you roll an 10 or better on 2d6, you affect everything with an OR of 8 or less. This includes armor, simple electronics (like a credstick), the floor, etc etc. This is the kind of thing you use to attack an enemy mage, because all of those fetishes and foci usually have ORs of 3-5.

The best thing to hit a highly-armed sammie with is a high-DL, low-Force Flamethrower. Sure, the sammie won't be hurt by the primary damage, but you've just cooked off every bullet, grenade, and bit of C-12 he's carrying, and that's gotta hurt! :D

[GunnerJ]

[Luke Hardison]

[Eyeless Blond]

[Zazen]

[sidartha]

Also, as I never tire of saying ;) Area El-Maps will hit what you personaly can't see.
"Are you on a shadowrun and you get pinned down by some mook shooting from around a corner and you just can't get by? Well my friend what you need is the new Acid Wave 2064!!! With this new spell you can not only hit and posably kill the happless moron, but even if he or she lives you will have burned off their armor, melted their weapons to goo and even prevented the sap from running so your Sammie can finish the job. Cause after all the elimination of any witnesses is always a good idea" :D

[Cain]

EM's can be combined with the Enhance Aim spell. That alone should settle the other players.

If you're firing off an AoE Elemental spell, then the TN to dodge should be at least a 6, if not higher. Since they affect the entire area equally, some GMs may impose an ever higher dodge penalty. Also, technically you can make a called shot with an AoE elemental spell. Called Shots allow you to bypass the normal restrictions on vehicles, so you can do damage to them-- something a normal combat spell isn't likely to do. Also, some specific secondary effects will affect some specific things, regardless of relative force or OR-- any electrical attack against a drone, for example, can cause feedback on a RCD.

Basically, manabolt and stunball are great for moving down lots of weak opposition. You can just pound them with lots and lots of successes, and not have to worry about fizzle. But if you really need to cause a lot of damage in a hurry, the EMs are the way to go.

[BitBasher]

[A Rodent of Unus...]

They use the rules for Ranged Combat Tests, including all standard modifiers, with Sorcery being used as the Ranged Combat Skill. Enhanced Aim works on all ranged attacks. That pretty much says it all.

[Cain]

Enhance Aim provides its bonus to any ranged attack, within the range of the spell. All EM's are treated as normal ranged attacks, with sorcery and magic pool in place of the usual skill and combat pool.

Given the other restrictions on Enhance Aim, this is the one application that makes it all worthwhile.


Edit: Dammit, Doc, why the hell do you have to be so fast on the keyboards! :P

[Joker9125]

Holy Crap dude I didnt realize that. Thats fraging awsome!!!

[Abstruse]

I rarely give my magicians single-target combat spells except Stunbolt because there's really not much point. Pistols: 6 and a Heavy Pistol. No drain. If you're going for a specific concept though, go for it. Nothing like the feeling of a bolt of electricity shooting from your fingers, streaking in a line and frying some poor sap in his shoes...

The Abstruse One

[BishopMcQ]

IMO--a lightning based spell would be almost as effective against Sams as a fire based one. You're wired reflexes shorting out and the cyber eyes only showing you snow will put a kink in many people's day.

[Nikoli]

What about Wreck(Fiber Optics)6? glass is a low OR (or it should be) say good bye to all your computer interface equipment (and cyber)

[Eyeless Blond]

Yup; all the fiber-optic glass you can see. Er, hmm...

[Nikoli]

Make it area affect...

[GunnerJ]

You still need LOS for area effect combat spells. So, even if a potential target is in range of the blast, it doesn't get effected unless you can see it.

[Nikoli]

I can see your gun, connected to your SL inductionpad connected to your brain via fiber optic cable

[Joker9125]

[ShadowGhost]

Also, lightning has an extra bonus for attacks against cybered sammies (under wound effects rules from M&M) - "Attacks thgat cause electrical damage automatically affect cyberware and may even damage more than one system simultaneously."

So even if the sammie stages it down to a light wound - at least one cyberware system is damaged, possibly more.

And depending on which one it is, it could really affect the sammie - i.e. if he has SL2, and tons of bioware.... the SL2 is toasted.

[Nikoli]

Hrmm, should a taser have a similair effect on an over-wired sammie?