 Laws and Magic, What is illegal and not |
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 Jun 3 2004, 02:37 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 283 Joined: 30-September 03 From: Kenmore, NY, USA Member No.: 5,663  |
Okay first off more or less what magic detect spells can be used with-in the constition, to those that are protected by it.
Ohhh I'm behind the whole, you don't have a SIN you aren't protected. I've always seen magic as being as illegal as any gun. Is there a place that actually goes over these things. I also figure if it is against the law to use such things as mind probes spells. Or that they won't hold up in court. That an officer can get a warrant and find stuff that he can get his hands onto because the spell had in directed them to those things being around. |
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Jun 3 2004, 02:54 AM
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#2
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
Anything Force 1 or 2 is legal, anything Greater requires a permit. Some people rule that Mindprobe is an Illegal spell, but to my knowledge this is a houserule.
As a note, Force 9 spells/foci/spirits have a negative legality code. Im not really sure what that means. Oh yeah: Detection spells do not hold up in court - at least, not in the UCAS judicial system. I believe this is mentioned in one of the older sourcebooks, and might be in a 3rd edition one, though I'm not sure which (if any). This post has been edited by Jason Farlander: Jun 3 2004, 02:57 AM |
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Jun 3 2004, 03:02 AM
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#3
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
It' not a house rule, mindprobe is illegal because it violates the 5th amendment, self incrimination. Any evidence gathered as a result of a mindprobe is inadmissable.
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Jun 3 2004, 03:17 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 125 Joined: 1-March 04 From: Gulf Coast Member No.: 6,111 |
That is in the UCAS and CAS. In other, how should we say, less scrupulous countries [read Atzlan] mindprobe would be fine... as long as you are sacntioned to use it.:vegm: - thearttheif [edit]Hit the wrong button.[/edit] |
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Jun 3 2004, 03:22 AM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316 |
Not all states are evil. I believe the Souix court system has 3 judges on the bench during the trial. At least one, if not all are magic users. And the whole time you are on the stand a compel truth and or a mind probe is being used on you to get the truth. The indians have a different take on the legal system then the white man. |
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Jun 3 2004, 03:25 AM
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#6
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Enforcement varies by spell type, too. If a LS mage notices detection or health magic floating around, he's less likely to pounce than if it's combat or the like.
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Jun 3 2004, 03:29 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 162 Joined: 14-April 04 Member No.: 6,239 |
LOL, that has sort of a double meaning as most LEO aren't going to chase mages using force 9 spells in the first place. |
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Jun 3 2004, 04:37 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 407 Joined: 22-March 04 Member No.: 6,183 |
What do you think all those Banshees underground at the Seattle HQ are for? :D
Edit: I'm pretty sure the Catalog spell's results would be legal. Admissible? Depends on how good your lawyer is. |
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Jun 3 2004, 04:44 AM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
Inadmissibility in court is not the same thing as illegality. There is no canon reference that states mindprobe is illegal at force 1 or 2, nor is there a canon reference to any inability to acquire a permit to learn that spell at force 3 or higher. While, as is the case with all detection spells, the results of a mindprobe spell are inadmissible in court (As a note though: The Fifth Amendment can be waived, in which case such evidence would be admissible... but who's to say the mage who cast the mindprobe/analyze truth/whatever isnt lying? An infinite chain or mages affirming the truth of all mages to testify beforehand? The main problem with these spells is the lack of objective verifiability by mundanes.) There is nothing to say that simply knowing the spell is illegal. |
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Jun 3 2004, 04:48 AM
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#10
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
To toss in one detail that may not quite be relevant and has not been mentioned, ritual materials for any combat spell are illegal. Even though a force 2 "slay cop" spell is somehow fully legal, it seems that there is no way you can argue self defense when you had to spend hours preparing the attack.
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Jun 3 2004, 05:15 AM
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#11
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I may be wrong, but I believe that Slay Cop isn't a legal spell rules-wise unless cops have recently become a different kind of critter entirely.
Edit: plus that would open all sorts of restricted-target messes, like "Slaughter Cop" being used to weed out undercover cops in a group of runners, or "Slaughter Guy Who Sold Us Out" for weeding out the more traditional turncoats. ~J |
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Jun 3 2004, 07:17 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 260 Joined: 20-March 04 From: That really good state. Yeah, you know the one... Member No.: 6,177 |
Theres always slay pig... ;) |
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Jun 3 2004, 03:18 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,359 Joined: 25-June 02 From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada (go Canucks!) Member No.: 2,904 |
Allright, let's see if I can shed some light on this topic with conjecture and opinion...
force 3+ spells and spirits are officially illegal in the UCAS. On corp property who knows? Heck, if Lofwyr (the corporate owner and CEO...his being a dragon for the purposes of this arguement is irrelevant) decides to he can change the laws of Saeder-Krupp minute by minute and have wildly inconsistant applications of the laws of the moment. In other countries who knows. Any spell used to break a law may or may not be legal, but the law is still broken. For instance, use a force 2 magic fingers spell to steal something and you have broken the law regarding theft, but not regarding magic. Net result: 1 charge of theft. Use a force 3 magic fingers spell to steal something and you have broken 3 laws. Net result: 1 charge of theft, one charge of illegal use of magic, one charge of illegal magical knowledge without a permit. |
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Jun 3 2004, 04:09 PM
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#14
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Yes, you're absolutely right on that I misstated. You said what I intended to, and failed! :grinbig:
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Jun 4 2004, 07:34 AM
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#15
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I am not here... Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 80 Joined: 21-May 04 From: Deepest Darkest Wales Member No.: 6,349 |
Here's a scenario for you:
You cast a force 3 or higher spell in a public place, no one sees you do it on the astral. Can any follow up investigation determine the force of the spell cast? Or what type of spell? Or even the exact spell? |
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Jun 4 2004, 07:44 AM
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#16
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Yes, yes, and yes, because spells leave an Astral Signature for a duration afterwards. Not too long mind you, but the stronger the spell the longer the impression lingers. The metamagic Cleansing can erase such signatures, imprints, and temporary background counts.
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Jun 4 2004, 07:49 AM
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#17
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I am not here... Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 80 Joined: 21-May 04 From: Deepest Darkest Wales Member No.: 6,349 |
How long after the spell is cast does it leave an impression for? Is it force in hours? I need to know in case I need to delay a forensic mage etc
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Jun 4 2004, 10:15 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Paris, France Member No.: 639 |
Anothe note : all illegal actions performed using magic are treated as "with premeditation".
I didn't see mentioned yet in the topic, so: most legal information about magic is found in MITS. |
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Jun 4 2004, 12:25 PM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
Yes, it is indeed force in hours. Note that you can erase astral signiatures without access to cleansing metamagic, though doing so takes time. See SR3, page 172 for details. |
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Jun 4 2004, 12:37 PM
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#20
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Minor hair-splitting question:
I don't have my books with me, can someone give me a quote? I believe the quote is something to the effect of "...anything with an availability higher than 3 is illegal..." (emphasis mine) |
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Jun 4 2004, 12:40 PM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
The quote is "All spells, foci and spirits of Force 3 or higher are considered illegal"
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Jun 4 2004, 12:52 PM
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#22
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Y'know, you're sitting there, you've got the book on your lap, you're copying out of it, would it be too much trouble to give a page number?
That's how referencing works. |
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Jun 4 2004, 12:55 PM
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#23
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
How do you differentiate between a Force 3 bound spirit and a Force 3 free spirit? If a Force 3 spirit is illegal then wouldn't Buttercup be illegal?
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Jun 4 2004, 04:36 PM
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#24
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
You try telling her that.
~J |
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Jun 4 2004, 04:41 PM
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#25
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
She'll make you double-post. Nasty stuff, that.
~J |
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