IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

4 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Sloppy Runners., Under Cover.
Mr.Platinum
post Jun 3 2004, 04:08 PM
Post #1


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 751
Joined: 7-June 02
From: Hamilton.LTG.on.ca
Member No.: 2,853



Well alot of times a character in my group will be sloppy, not every one really cares obout if they where seen, or who hads tabs on who.

So in my Game i'm going to have and undercover agent infiltrate the group, be it from corp to goverment.


Now I say if a group gets to sloppy i always have hell rain down on them ***Hell Rain on them, I have a Lone Star Cop named Alex Rain on there ass**
now it's at the point where they have the FBI on them.


What are your guys opinions on this take?

Have you ever done anything like this?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Siege
post Jun 3 2004, 05:08 PM
Post #2


Dragon
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,065
Joined: 16-January 03
From: Fayetteville, NC
Member No.: 3,916



It's difficult to "infiltrate" a tight group of people.

How many NPCs routinely run with your PCs? You might have better luck "turning" a PC and having him inform for interested third parties.

At the very least, a PC would still have to introduce the new "recruit" to the rest of the crew.

-Siege
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cray74
post Jun 3 2004, 05:26 PM
Post #3


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,428
Joined: 9-June 02
Member No.: 2,860



One of the GM tricks for running an undercover agent in a group is to let a player run his PC normally, then at some point just take over the PC. Or pull out the "real" character sheet. This works best with a cooperative player who doesn't mind surprise GM interventions; it can really piss off all the players if you're not careful.

I suppose a Shadowrun variant might be to let a PC have a "dark secret" flaw, but not tell the player what the dark secret is. "Okay, Bob, step outside with me. It's time to learn what your PC's dark secret is, and I'm going to be running your PC for a bit tonight..."

Another version I ran was of a NPC doppleganger mimicking a PC and attacking the other PCs. Since the PCs were not all in a group (the mimicked PC was separate; they were supposed to meet later), the other PCs later jumped the mimicked PC while the doppleganger got away.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Number 6
post Jun 3 2004, 06:20 PM
Post #4


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 191
Joined: 10-May 04
Member No.: 6,316



I try this stuff when a PC gets killed. I'll take them aside and say, hey, yor character should be dead, but i'll let you live and have some fun for awhile. Then we tweak the characters history so the whole time he was a sleeper agent for XXXX and nobody knew it. A few sessions down the road i'll 'activate' him to fullfill some goal. This usually surprises the shit out of the players, who then turn their wrath on the PC who betrayed them.

I'll usually give the moles' next character a bit of bonus karma for playing a walking deadman.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Arethusa
post Jun 3 2004, 07:20 PM
Post #5


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,901
Joined: 19-June 03
Member No.: 4,775



QUOTE (Mr.Platinum)
Now I say if a group gets to sloppy i always have hell rain down on them ***Hell Rain on them, I have a Lone Star Cop named Alex Rain on there ass**
now it's at the point where they have the FBI on them.

Does he carry akimbo Berettas, have a constipated grin on his face, and speak only in melodramatic metaphor?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Backgammon
post Jun 3 2004, 07:30 PM
Post #6


Ain Soph Aur
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,477
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Montreal, Canada
Member No.: 600



Sprawl Survival Guide states, and I completely agree with it, that undercover agents infiltrating runner teams are very, very unlikely. It's just way too difficult and dangerous. The risk of getting killed is really quite high, plus the work required to pull it off successfully isn't worth it.

Cops looking to bring down runners are better off hitting them with surveillance and putting heat on their contacts. Most level 1 contacts will give away the runner if it means not going to jail themselves. Some will even do it for money.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nikoli
post Jun 3 2004, 07:32 PM
Post #7


Chicago Survivor
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 5,079
Joined: 28-January 04
From: Canton, GA
Member No.: 6,033



Hence why runners should maintain several id's some just for when dealing with contacts
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kuroko
post Jun 3 2004, 07:41 PM
Post #8


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 27
Joined: 20-January 03
Member No.: 3,936



QUOTE (Mr.Platinum)
Now I say if a group gets to sloppy i always have hell rain down on them ***Hell Rain on them, I have a Lone Star Cop named Alex Rain on there ass**
now it's at the point where they have the FBI on them.
What are your guys opinions on this take?
Have you ever done anything like this?

Ok, so I'm in the habit of having a NPC or two along for the ride with those guys. Usually a decker (or some other role that the players need but don't know/ aren't filling/the rules are too complex and I wanna use simpler ones that would make it too easy on players), but there have been times where I've considered this. The simple answer to have the guy work with them, help 'em out, maybe even save their lives, and then spring the pain. No warning, very little chance off them discovering anythng until near the end.

Typically this is due to them allowing a corp to id them after they've done many runs against them. If you want to target one specific player for stupidity, make them the traitor and let the other players slowly figure it out.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Lantzer
post Jun 3 2004, 07:50 PM
Post #9


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 693
Joined: 26-March 03
Member No.: 4,335



The FBI would only attempt to infiltrate a runner team in order to build a file on their contacts and employers. The runners themselves are nothing.

It's too much risk and effort to infiltrate a team just to go after the team. If the feds are capable of putting an agent into the team to betray them, they could have just as easily picked them all up, and made the SINless ones dissapear.

Now, I could see the Feds recruiting a runner or whole team as informants, in the old, "Work for us and you'll keep breathing regularly" style. But only to gather information on the bigger fish in the shadow pond.

After all, what keeps runners in business is the fact that they are nobody (with skills).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BitBasher
post Jun 3 2004, 08:39 PM
Post #10


Traumatizing players since 1992
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,282
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Las Vegas, NV
Member No.: 220



QUOTE (Arethusa)
QUOTE (Mr.Platinum @ Jun 3 2004, 12:08 PM)
Now I say if a group gets to sloppy i always have hell rain down on them ***Hell Rain on them, I have a Lone Star Cop named Alex Rain on there ass**
now it's at the point where they have the FBI on them.

Does he carry akimbo Berettas, have a constipated grin on his face, and speak only in melodramatic metaphor?

In all fairness he only talks like that when under great emotional strain. In the second game he was largely normal intil his coworker betrayed him, then he was slipping but didnt fall into full Noir Metaphor mode until the last chapter of the game, aptly named "That Old Familiar Feeling" when he went full blown snappage.

I loved those games for the story. Those games had atmosphere. :D
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The White Dwarf
post Jun 3 2004, 09:41 PM
Post #11


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 614
Joined: 17-June 03
From: A safehouse about to be compromised by ninjas
Member No.: 4,754



Infiltrating a team wont happen. First its like really hard. Second, infiltrating the team gets you nothing because theyre not connected to their emplyoers, thats like the point of using runners. To infiltrate a team with the intent of getting the employer would require you to predict and know who would hire them when. And to get the team itself its easier to use more normal means.

Someone on the team betraying them is a total other story. Thats plausaible and makes complete sense. Selling them out for whatever reason by a npc contact or member is a real risk of shadow work.

Incidently, if your team doesnt care who sees them and is sloppy, how the hell are they a) alive and b) still getting jobs. Might want to hit them with the logical-gm-stick before you break out the backstabbing-player-stick....
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
JaronK
post Jun 3 2004, 10:16 PM
Post #12


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 942
Joined: 13-May 04
Member No.: 6,323



If the Feds are on to them, set up a sting. Have the Feds set them up for a run against someone or something, and have that someone or something know about it, and ambush the runners, and then have the place where they retreat to known about as well. Perhaps try to plant a tracker on their vehicle?

JaronK
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Snow_Fox
post Jun 3 2004, 10:26 PM
Post #13


Prime Runner
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,577
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Gwynedd Valley PA
Member No.: 1,221



Or have the feds talk to one charcters. "you know, we have you" produce lots of pics from camera and print outs of activities from other runs.
"Now you and you're little pals can do 20 years inside a federal pen, or a little job for us, or maybe you'd like us to give this detail to Cross? I think they'd like to know you."

Of ocurse the group is never off the hook asnd this can be a convenient hook if used rarely"Think of it as work release."

It's up to the grabbed runner, does he tell the gorup what's up or does he just say it's a run they have to do.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cray74
post Jun 3 2004, 10:35 PM
Post #14


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,428
Joined: 9-June 02
Member No.: 2,860



QUOTE (The White Dwarf)
Infiltrating a team wont happen.  First its like really hard. 

Sure it is. Every PC runner is a complete professional who takes no chances, is reasonably paranoid, makes no mistakes, and never misjudges character. That new runner they hired for their shadowteam, the one who has years of experience in the shadows, was never a company man. Really. They checked corporate records, which are never purged of incriminating evidence.

QUOTE
Second, infiltrating the team gets you nothing because theyre not connected to their emplyoers, thats like the point of using runners.


That's the theory, but that's not how it works out. Consider:

pg126, Corporate Download. "Ares is normally willing to expose themselves as the employers of a shadowteam. If they do not, they pay in nuyen using the standard pay rates."

pg132, Corporate Download. "Lanier has even taken to capturing runners who engage in ops against Novatech, then making a bid for their services and turning them against their former employers." Meaning the runners pretty well know they work for Novatech, and implying they know who their employers are.

pg137, Corporate Download, "Shiawase pays standard fees, and will negotiate for 10 percent of the fee to be Shiawase stock."

While Aztech and Saeder Krupp are pretty intense about hiding their identities from employers, other AAA megacorps are not so careful, and Ares is pretty open about it.

Therefore, while runners may be used for plausible deniability, there are several megacorps that the runners can work for and know their employer, thereby being vulnerable to infiltration and government (or megacorp) stings.

QUOTE
To infiltrate a team with the intent of getting the employer would require you to predict and know who would hire them when.


Naw. You can just release a few company men...or, heck, even hire shadowrunners...to join a shadowteam, and see what intel they turn up from the shadows.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Jun 3 2004, 11:48 PM
Post #15





Guests






QUOTE (Backgammon @ Jun 3 2004, 12:30 PM)
Sprawl Survival Guide states, and I completely agree with it, that undercover agents infiltrating runner teams are very, very unlikely. It's just way too difficult and dangerous. The risk of getting killed is really quite high, plus the work required to pull it off successfully isn't worth it.

Well, that's true in general, isn't it? I mean, runner teams aren't unique in this particular venture.

BTW, why in the hell would the FBI give a rip about a runner team?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BitBasher
post Jun 3 2004, 11:59 PM
Post #16


Traumatizing players since 1992
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,282
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Las Vegas, NV
Member No.: 220



Yeah, I mean if you think about it most of the crimes a typical runner team performs is on extraterritorial land, where the FBI have no jurisdiction.

If it was on mega property would that be the NSA or CIA instead of the FBI?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Siege
post Jun 4 2004, 12:18 AM
Post #17


Dragon
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,065
Joined: 16-January 03
From: Fayetteville, NC
Member No.: 3,916



I guess it depends on what the runner team did -- the FBI doesn't really care about catching every car thief in the country.

If that car thief has a habit of scattering the body parts of his victims out of the window while he drives, on the other hand...

-Siege
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cray74
post Jun 4 2004, 12:33 AM
Post #18


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,428
Joined: 9-June 02
Member No.: 2,860



QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
BTW, why in the hell would the FBI give a rip about a runner team?

Well, yeah, shadowrunners might do crimes outside of FBI jurisdiction, but not always. After all, the runners are hired for those dirty deeds that the megacorp wants a measure of deniability about, correct?

So, to the FBI (or megacorp), the runners become a means to an end. For example:

*Infiltrating a shadowteam, or having agents pose as/BE runners is a GREAT form of counter-intelligence for megacorps

*Infiltrating a shadowteam answers questions like, "Who hired them?" and "Is anything naughty being done in [faction X's] jurisdiction"?

Any competent megacorp security branch will have counter-intelligence watching for shadowruns. An excellent way to do it is make some agents runners, or vice versa. The FBI might also be watching for shadowruns - are runners trying to launch a data steal or extraction against some key gubmint project?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Warmaster Lah
post Jun 4 2004, 01:33 AM
Post #19


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 124
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 2,072



QUOTE (The White Dwarf)
Infiltrating a team wont happen. First its like really hard. Second, infiltrating the team gets you nothing because theyre not connected to their emplyoers, thats like the point of using runners. To infiltrate a team with the intent of getting the employer would require you to predict and know who would hire them when. And to get the team itself its easier to use more normal means.

Someone on the team betraying them is a total other story. Thats plausaible and makes complete sense. Selling them out for whatever reason by a npc contact or member is a real risk of shadow work.

Incidently, if your team doesnt care who sees them and is sloppy, how the hell are they a) alive and b) still getting jobs. Might want to hit them with the logical-gm-stick before you break out the backstabbing-player-stick....

Well infiltrating a team could be a really really detailed shadowop. Say infiltrate a team. Sure collect info on the shadows in the mean time, you know make yourself useful. Then somewhere down the line manipulate the team into going on somekind of "Run of the Century," and while thats going down the spy acomplishes the real objective all while framming the team and escaping or something.

Still to farfetched though, unless the corp was planning that one job months or years in advance. And even then it is still flimsy, unless its SK getting revenge on the team or something.


Heres another one though, Maybe the infiltrator isn't really trying to shaft the runners. Maybe they have infiltrated the team to "look after" one of the team members. Like a lost heir or the Presidents illegitimate daughter.

Maybe the spy still gets outed. Leading to distrust of two people affiliated with the team. I dont know...just fishin.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Number 6
post Jun 4 2004, 01:40 AM
Post #20


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 191
Joined: 10-May 04
Member No.: 6,316



QUOTE (Warmaster Lah)
Well infiltrating a team could be a really really detailed shadowop. Say infiltrate a team. Sure collect info on the shadows in the mean time, you know make yourself useful. Then somewhere down the line manipulate the team into going on somekind of "Run of the Century," and while thats going down the spy acomplishes the real objective all while framming the team and escaping or something.

Still to farfetched though, unless the corp was planning that one job months or years in advance. And even then it is still flimsy, unless its SK getting revenge on the team or something.


Heres another one though, Maybe the infiltrator isn't really trying to shaft the runners. Maybe they have infiltrated the team to "look after" one of the team members. Like a lost heir or the Presidents illegitimate daughter.

Maybe the spy still gets outed. Leading to distrust of two people affiliated with the team. I dont know...just fishin.

Great idea for one of those games when you can't find too many players. Like a one or two runner team. Thanks.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Panzergeist
post Jun 4 2004, 04:14 AM
Post #21


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,362
Joined: 3-October 03
From: Poway, San Diego County, CA, USA
Member No.: 5,676



I don't see why anyone would want to infiltrate a freelance shadowteam. A corp would have little interest, because the team could work for anyone and against anyone; there's no telling how long it will be before the team does a run that the corp would have any interest in. As for law enforcement, they would want to do one of two things: A) look the other way, because the runners aren't disturbing the public order, or b) kill them all as quickly as possible, because they are a "danger to society." There's no need to have an undercover guy join them, because you already know they are criminals, and besides, they're SINless; you don't need to prove jack squat beyond a reasonable doubt.

Someone might be interested in infiltrating a team for the purpose of a singe specific run, but that is almost impossible because runners rarely take more than a week between receiving a job and carrying it out. The only way this could be done would be if the players were creating a whole new running team with new characters. The other possibility is if the team is not freelance, but rather a regular black ops team for a corp. In this case, infiltration by a rival corp is perfectly doable.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cutter07
post Jun 4 2004, 05:30 AM
Post #22


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 162
Joined: 14-April 04
Member No.: 6,239



Platinum think of how small cameras can get now. In 2060 they could be all over the place. Everything you do taped and sent to LS. You could really brink down some heat on them if LS knows who they are and what they do.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
KillaJ
post Jun 4 2004, 05:43 AM
Post #23


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 260
Joined: 20-March 04
From: That really good state. Yeah, you know the one...
Member No.: 6,177



Yeah but couldn't they just kill the LS responding unit and get off scott free? ;)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Arethusa
post Jun 4 2004, 05:45 AM
Post #24


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,901
Joined: 19-June 03
Member No.: 4,775



Just because canon states that, on average, you are on 3 cameras most of the time in modern urban areas does not mean those three cameras belong to the same people, nor does it mean that even one of those is a camera that Lone Star has access to. It's something to be careful about, but certainly not something that Lone Star can nail everyone with no matter what.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cray74
post Jun 4 2004, 10:13 AM
Post #25


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,428
Joined: 9-June 02
Member No.: 2,860



QUOTE (Panzergeist)
I don't see why anyone would want to infiltrate a freelance shadowteam. A corp would have little interest, because the team could work for anyone and against anyone; there's no telling how long it will be before the team does a run that the corp would have any interest in.

Counter-intelligence operations don't work by knowing exactly what the opposition is going to do - if a government or corporate security branch knew exactly what the bad guys were doing, there wouldn't be much need for counter intelligence.

So you go out looking. You put people out in the shadows and have them fish for information, feeding any interesting nuggets and rumors back to the agency or megacorp. The people back in the office build up a picture from those reports and (hopefully) determine what all the other factions are up to.

Since anyone but a runner is only go to have second hand information of what happens on a run, and will never get the straight deal on what goes on between runners and Mr. Johnson, an excellent way to see what the opposition is doing is to plant someone amongst runners.

Maybe the agent won't hit jack pot, or will work for boring employers, but you have to start somewhere, right? A little on-the-job experience is a great pointer toward bigger and better "fish."

As for law enforcement, they would want to do one of two things: A) look the other way, because the runners aren't disturbing the public order, or b) kill them all as quickly as possible, because they are a "danger to society." There's no need to have an undercover guy join them, because you already know they are criminals, and besides, they're SINless; you don't need to prove jack squat beyond a reasonable doubt.

QUOTE
Someone might be interested in infiltrating a team for the purpose of a singe specific run,


Naw. Runners are just a means to an end: learning who's employing them, and when they're hitting the agent's megacorp.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

4 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 29th March 2024 - 06:23 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.