Ronald Reagan, SDI and Shadowrun

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Ronald Reagan, SDI and Shadowrun

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otomik

Jun 6 2004, 09:45 AM

Post #1

Moving Target

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i'm curious if the SDI anti-ballistic missile system (Star Wars) ever got off the ground in the shadowrun timeline. It seems like there's a few missile's in SR history that have been sent up yet never reached their target (Lone Eagle incident, North Korea). does it work, how does it work or how does it work in SR?

i'd also like to point to a favorite part of Reagan's speech where he introduces SDI. It's a very poignant speech but overshadowed by his speech on the Challenger disaster, the last lines of which come back to me upon his recent death.
'slipped the surly bonds of earth' to 'touch the face of God.'

QUOTE

If the Soviet Union will join with us in our effort to achieve major arms reduction we will have succeeded in stabilizing the nuclear balance. Nevertheless, it will still be necessary to rely on the specter of retaliation, on mutual threat. And that's a sad commentary on the human condition. Wouldn't it be better to save lives than to avenge them? Are we not capable of demonstrating our peaceful intentions by applying all our abilities and our ingenuity to achieving a truly lasting stability? I think we are. Indeed, we must.

After careful consultation with my advisers, including the Joint Chiefs of Staff, I believe there is a way. Let me share with you a vision of the future which offers hope. It is that we embark on a program to counter the awesome Soviet missile threat with measures that are defensive. Let us turn to the very strengths in technology that spawned our great industrial base and that have given us the quality of life we enjoy today.

What if free people could live secure in the knowledge that their security did not rest upon the threat of instant U.S. retaliation to deter a Soviet attack, that we could intercept and destroy strategic ballistic missiles before they reached our own soil or that of our allies?

I know this is a formidable, technical task, one that may not be accomplished before the end of this century. Yet, current technology has attained a level of sophistication where it's reasonable for us to begin this effort. It will take years, probably decades of effort on many fronts. There will be failures and setbacks, just as there will be successes and breakthroughs. And as we proceed, we must remain constant in preserving the nuclear deterrent and maintaining a solid capability for flexible response. But isn't it worth every investment necessary to free the world from the threat of nuclear war? We know it is.

In the meantime, we will continue to pursue real reductions in nuclear arms, negotiating from a position of strength that can be ensured only by modernizing our strategic forces. At the same time, we must take steps to reduce the risk of a conventional military conflict escalating to nuclear war by improving our nonnuclear capabilities.

America does possess now the technologies to attain very significant improvements in the effectiveness of our conventional, nonnuclear forces. Proceeding boldly with these new technologies, we can significantly reduce any incentive that the Soviet Union may have to threaten attack against the United States or its allies.

As we pursue our goal of defensive technologies, we recognize that our allies rely upon our strategic offensive power to deter attacks against them. Their vital interests and ours are inextricably linked. Their safety and ours are one. And no change in technology can or will alter that reality. We must and shall continue to honor our commitments.

I clearly recognize that defensive systems have limitations and raise certain problems and ambiguities. If paired with offensive systems, they can be viewed as fostering an aggressive policy, and no one wants that. But with these considerations firmly in mind, I call upon the scientific community in our country, those who gave us nuclear weapons, to turn their great talents now to the cause of mankind and world peace, to give us the means of rendering these nuclear weapons impotent and obsolete.

http://www.townhall.com/hall_of_fame/reagan/speech/sdi.html

Person 404 View Member Profile	Jun 6 2004, 10:31 AM Post #2
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 8-June 03 Member No.: 4,696	Actually, a lot of nukes just fail to work in SR; I think it's less SDI than some unexplained (at least as far as I know) occurence, especially since it extends to the Cermak blast.

Abstruse View Member Profile	Jun 6 2004, 01:08 PM Post #3
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,451 Joined: 21-April 03 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 4,488	Manasphere screws with nuclear explosions? Personally, I think this thread isn't much more than an attempt to bring back the off-topic post about Reagan's death by trying to force it into being on-topic. Hopefully, it'll get closed too. The man's dead. Whether he was a great man or a menace is up to your personal politics and no amount of debating will change the minds of those who feel otherwise. Frankly, though, the man was advanced in years with several medical conditions so it shouldn't be that big of a surprise he passed away. Morn him if you will, burn him in effigy if that's your perogative, just keep it off the boards so we can discuss Shadowrun. The Abstruse One

toturi View Member Profile	Jun 6 2004, 01:13 PM Post #4
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187	Could have given him Gene Therapy and Leonisation.

Crusher Bob View Member Profile	Jun 6 2004, 02:13 PM Post #5
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253	Considering the fact that man portable lasers are available, ballistic weapons are probably on their way out in SR (ballistic missiles, conventioal aritllery, non-stealth aircraft). Nukes can still be delivered by tree hugging stealth missiles. Expect artillery to change to something similar. Aircraft will have to alos have all sorts of expensive stealth and EW gizmos to keep from being swept from the sky too (if UAV have not completly taken over this role by now). Also, anti satellite weapons will be very well developed as well, so don't expect GPS to have coverage of the war zone... Interesting diplomatic problems here... Given the decision making speeds involved. i'd expect more systems to become AEGIS like, the human just turns a key the authorizes the system to fire, and it decides what to fire at, when, and how much...

Kanada Ten

Jun 6 2004, 08:40 PM

Post #6

Beetle Eater

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QUOTE

2009 - Although denying responsibility for the launch, U.S. President Garrety informs Russian President Nikolai Chelenko of the targets of the multiple warheads. Garrety hopes to prevent a full scale retaliation by giving the Russians enough time to use semi-secret ballistic defenses to stop the missile. (Shadowrun Second Edition)

2009 - Shortly after being informed of the missile, President Chelenko tersely informs Garrety that the warheads have been stopped. A privately conducted stress analysis of Chelenko's voice later indicated only a 79% probability that he speaks the truth, but neither seismic nor space-based sensors record any nuclear explosions. (Shadowrun Second Edition)

I think the Japanese claim missile defense on the Korean attack, though that is doubted.

Kanada Ten

Jun 6 2004, 09:18 PM

Post #7

Beetle Eater

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And looking at it deeper it seems they only have missile interceptors, more like today's missile defense proposals.

QUOTE

2009 - In Montana, U.S.A., after ten days of negotiations a Delta Team anti-terrorist group invades the silo. During the struggle, which results in the death of all the occupying SAIM members, a single Lone Eagle ICBM carrying four MIRVed five-megaton warheads is launched. The missile, which is targeted for the Russian Republic, ignores all auto-destruct signals. The military has no interceptors in position that can shoot the missile down either. (Shadowrun Second Edition)

Phaeton View Member Profile	Jun 6 2004, 11:02 PM Post #8
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 973 Joined: 3-October 03 Member No.: 5,677	Hah. Me and Arethusa just blame nukes screwing up in canon on the fact that the rules permit someone standing at ground zero to survive with a mere 1 box of L physical. :P

Person 404 View Member Profile	Jun 6 2004, 11:11 PM Post #9
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 8-June 03 Member No.: 4,696	Wha? There are rules for nuke damage?

Phaeton View Member Profile	Jun 7 2004, 12:23 AM Post #10
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 973 Joined: 3-October 03 Member No.: 5,677	Nah. The only canon-ish rules are the default explosion rules. Basically it's just (reallyhighassnumber)D or so. But you could conceivably roll high enough to stage it down...

Person 404 View Member Profile	Jun 7 2004, 12:33 AM Post #11
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 8-June 03 Member No.: 4,696	And I'm sure the odds are about as high as all of the radiation/blast missing you by dint of quantum tunnelling... (Yes, this is hyperbole.)

Kanada Ten View Member Profile	Jun 7 2004, 12:54 AM Post #12
Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826	I'm pretty sure that Nukes do Naval Scale damage, don't you? Not to mention simply invoking the instant death rule. Frag, if a Stonebinder can kill one instantly with a spit to the head, I think a nuke need no rule to say so.

Kagetenshi

Jun 7 2004, 12:54 AM

Post #13

Manus Celer Dei

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QUOTE (Phaeton)

Hah. Me and Arethusa just blame nukes screwing up in canon on the fact that the rules permit someone standing at ground zero to survive with a mere 1 box of L physical. :P

Except they don't. Nuclear weapons would be DN easily, and as such I don't think it's possible to build a character who can stage it down to L.

~J

Sahandrian

Jun 7 2004, 12:56 AM

Post #14

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Except they don't. Nuclear weapons would be DN easily, and as such I don't think it's possible to build a character who can stage it down to L.

~J

The next munchkin challenge?

BitBasher View Member Profile	Jun 7 2004, 12:59 AM Post #15
Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220	munchkins cannot do it. 36 boxes of damage base plus about 50,000 dice for staging at TN 4. On average you're taking 12,536 boxes of damage and need in the neighborhood of 25,000 and some change sucesses to survive it at a TN of 100,000 minus of course, your impact armor. :)

otomik View Member Profile	Jun 7 2004, 01:20 AM Post #16
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752	so how often does this problem come up in your games? i mean what kind of campaign are you running where there are nuclear explosions and people soaking the damage?

Phaeton

Jun 7 2004, 01:26 AM

Post #17

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QUOTE (otomik)

so how often does this problem come up in your games? i mean what kind of campaign are you running where there are nuclear explosions and people soaking the damage?

Oh, none right now. I was mainly just referring to a relatively ancient thread on here that started as a discussion on the Horrors and split into a nuke rules debate and something else...

Hasaku

Jun 7 2004, 02:07 AM

Post #18

Moving Target

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QUOTE (BitBasher @ Jun 6 2004, 05:59 PM)

munchkins cannot do it. 36 boxes of damage base plus about 50,000 dice for staging at TN 4.

Of course, a munchkin would point out that Explosive Staging and Deadlier Overdamage are both optional rules, then proceed to survive by metabolic arrestor.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jun 7 2004, 02:25 AM Post #19
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Unfortunately, even without Deadlier Over-Damage, naval damage still does more than 10 boxes, so unless the munchkin can scrounge twenty-six boxes of overflow, they're toast. ~J

Omega Skip View Member Profile	Jun 7 2004, 08:02 AM Post #20
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 152 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 2,074	High body Troll phoenix shaman.

toturi

Jun 7 2004, 10:36 AM

Post #21

Canon Companion

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Unfortunately, even without Deadlier Over-Damage, naval damage still does more than 10 boxes, so unless the munchkin can scrounge twenty-six boxes of overflow, they're toast.

~J

Simple, Immunity to Deadly Damage and Overflow.

GreatChicken View Member Profile	Jun 7 2004, 11:11 AM Post #22
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: 27-April 04 From: Everywhere, but nowhere. Member No.: 6,286	^ I didn't know you can be immune to 'forms of damage'.... :eek:

Crusher Bob View Member Profile	Jun 7 2004, 11:53 AM Post #23
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253	A munchkins power can be so great that then can ignore whole sections, nay, chapters of the rule book. And if you strike their PCS down, the next version will be more powerful than you could possibly imagine.

Phaeton

Jun 7 2004, 12:32 PM

Post #24

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Crusher Bob)

A munchkins power can be so great that then can ignore whole sections, nay, chapters of the rule book. And if you strike their PCS down, the next version will be more powerful than you could possibly imagine.

Obi-Wan Kenobi was a munchkin? :eek:

Omega Skip View Member Profile	Jun 7 2004, 01:10 PM Post #25
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 152 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 2,074	No, seriously, a Phoenix shaman has an overflow monitor of [body x 2]. If you can jack up natural body to, say, 15 (Troll), then he could conceivable withstand 25 boxes of overflow damage and still hope to live. Maybe not enough to survive a nuke... but he could survive pretty much everything else. Especially if you give him the edge that increases the overflow monitor.

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