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> House rules I am considering; comments please, Making SMG vs assault rifle more real
Wounded Ronin
post Jun 6 2004, 09:09 PM
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I thought some more about making SR more realistic and making weapon class choices more meaningful. Oftentimes I feel like SR needs more fine details about firearms behavior because as far as I'm concerned SR is all about being one of the most realistic firearm combat systems available in RPGs.

Generally speaking there are some tactical reasons that you take an SMG instead of an assault rifle when you take an SMG instead of assault rifle.

1.) The SMG is easier to point quickly at very close range, whereas the rifle has better resolution on the sights because of the barrel length but cannot quickly be aimed at close range.
2.) The SMG, with its shorter barrel, is more suited for spamming a coordior, whereas assault rifle spam is more suited for longer range out of doors suppressive fire due to the longer barrel.
3.) The shorter the barrel the harder the gun is to take away in hand to hand combat. A M1 would be relatively easy to disarm (although it would make a good club, heh heh) in hand to hand compared to an Uzi. A 1911 would be harder to disarm than an MP5. A crappy snub nosed .25 cal revolver designed for concealability would be harder to disarm than a 1911 and might even require something more resembling a knife disarm (very tricky) than a classical pistol disarm (easier by comparison.) In other words, the smaller the firearm, the better off you are in hand to hand combat.

Therefore, I'd propose the following optional rules for SR:
1.) Assault rifles and rifles get a +1 TN penalty to hit when firing at Close range for an SMG.
2.) Unless it is being used as a club or spear (with a bayonet) in hand to hand combat, someone holding a rifle or an assault rifle gets a +1 penalty in melee combat.
3.) Maybe pistols should get less of a penalty when fired in melee combat.

Any comments would be appreciated.
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eidolon
post Jun 7 2004, 01:08 AM
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Just to touch on the three modifications mentioned,

1: The closer something is, the easier it is to hit, regardless of the firearm being used. Why would there be a +1 to TN with an assault rifle up close? As long as the target is not standing under, or right next to the end of your barrel making them impossible to hit (which is when it becomes melee, or you just angle the rifle and shoot them anyway), then there shouldn't be any penalty.

2: I could sorta see this one. However, if the character has the club skill, defaulting to club while using a rifle as said club already packs it's penalty punch. (alitteration is my friend :) )

3: Hmm... I'm not sure what penalty you're referring to, and I'm too lazy to look atm, but I assume you're not talking about using a pistol to fire into a melee. The penalty in that case would be due to the whole idea that at any moment during a melee altercation, the enemy might throw your buddy in front of him, or they could both fall to the ground, etc. Hence them being harder to hit.

As far as using a pistol in a melee, I can only imagine that any penalty to TN is supposed to reflect that the opposing character is doing all he/she can to keep you from pointing the pistol at them. (Close melee, anyway.) If, however, someone is standing there trying to face off with you using their laser crescent axe, and you're holding a Pred...there's no reason whatsoever to have a penalty. If anything, think Indiana Jones.

*swords flailing, the dude lets out a war cry*

*Indy shoots him.*
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Entropy Kid
post Jun 7 2004, 02:11 AM
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1) Short range for SMGs extends out to around 32 ft (I can't think in meters). Why would a rifle have a problem at that range? The +1TN probably shouldn't apply until the target is within 3 meters, and only if actually doing anything. I don't have any experience with rifles, but it's just as easy or hard to aim a shotgun to 32 or 33 ft.

2) What other way would a rifle be used except as a club or spear? Giving a +TN to melee combat doesn' t make sense to me, like you said, the M1 made a good club. If you mean trying to shoot a person who is actively in the process of up-close ass kicking, then I'd agree.

A -1TN for someone attempting to disarm a rifle weilding person would make sense as well. Of course, you'd then have to apply it to all polearms except for the big swords. -1TN for disarming rifles, normal for SMGs, and +1TN for disarming pistols (+2 really small pistols) seems reasonable. Although again, it's only fair to apply those modifiers for anything that fits the general size, but keeping in mind how dangerous or unweildy a particular item is.

3) Just deal with pistols case-by-case. If someone with a knife approaches someone with a pistol, Bladeboy is in the Pistoleer's face, making it harder to accurately fire. If someone is back a bit using a spear then there's more room and-or time to get the shot off.

Arethusa came up with some situational houserules that seemed to take a lot into account, although I didn't agree with his numbers. Searching his name and "CQB" should get something.
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mcb
post Jun 7 2004, 02:34 AM
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Not to mention that the lines drawn between assault rifles, carbines, and SMG are getting pretty fuzzy. Drawing the line between the groups is no longer as cut and dry at it would have been in say WWII.

mcb
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Scarecrow237
post Jun 7 2004, 02:43 AM
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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
1.)  Assault rifles and rifles get a +1 TN penalty to hit when firing at Close range for an SMG.
2.)  Unless it is being used as a club or spear (with a bayonet) in hand to hand combat, someone holding a rifle or an assault rifle gets a +1 penalty in melee combat.
3.)  Maybe pistols should get less of a penalty when fired in melee combat.

1.) I would change this to +1 TN penalty to hit when fireing at Half of close range for an SMG. I would also include the stipulation that this penalty only applies indoors or in other close quarter fighting.

2.) No prob here, but IIRC, dropping something is a simple action, so it won't come into play very often.

3.)Chances are, if someone is throwing a punch at you while you have a gun in your hand, your gun is useless. You will likely throw it away to start brawling.

Nice ideas though
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I Eat Time
post Jun 7 2004, 02:45 AM
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QUOTE (Entropy Kid)
A -1TN for someone attempting to disarm a rifle weilding person would make sense as well. Of course, you'd then have to apply it to all polearms except for the big swords. -1TN for disarming rifles, normal for SMGs, and +1TN for disarming pistols (+2 really small pistols) seems reasonable. Although again, it's only fair to apply those modifiers for anything that fits the general size, but keeping in mind how dangerous or unweildy a particular item is.

I'm not big into martial arts, so feel free to criticise if any of you know any better. But I would think one of the first things taught in Polearms Training 101 would be how to keep your opponent from grabbing the thing from you, or at least how to make it a bad idea on their part. The A.Rifle training schools probably don't teach you a lot about counter-disarming when you're learning how to use the gun.

Basically, what I'm saying is, I wouldn't think a polearm in the hands of a trained user would be much easier to disarm than a club, or knife, simply by merit that if they're trained to use it, they KNOW people are going to try to grab it. I think the assumption was, if you've got an assault rifle in hand-to-hand, chances are you don't know jack about melee with a club and are having to improv, otherwise why not have a club out? So the thing's easier to steal.

Just my take on it.
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BitBasher
post Jun 7 2004, 02:46 AM
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Dropping something is a free action.
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Entropy Kid
post Jun 7 2004, 03:05 AM
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@I Eat Time-
Reach still counts when attempting to disarm, so the benefits of using a polearm aren't negated. Also, it takes half-Strength successes to disarm when something is gripped with two hands. So a skilled user of a polearm isn't going to lose it easily, even if they don't manage to bash the disarmer.
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I Eat Time
post Jun 7 2004, 03:34 AM
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Here's a good question then, I don't really have a good take on it either way. Should the two-hand grip thing apply to the assault rifle? Possibly some good arguments on either side.
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Entropy Kid
post Jun 7 2004, 04:49 AM
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QUOTE
Should the two-hand grip thing apply to the assault rifle?
Only if it's being operated with two hands. :)
A better debate could probably be made whether or not two hands on a pistol count, or anything small and one-handed. In both cases I believe the 2-hands rule applies. I can't think of a situation where it wouldn't, but I'm sure some exist. It's not something worth making a rule about; GMs should just apply what they think makes sense in teh specific situation.
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Capt. Dave
post Jun 7 2004, 04:53 AM
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QUOTE (Entropy Kid)

A better debate could probably be made whether or not two hands on a pistol count, or anything small and one-handed. In both cases I believe the 2-hands rule applies.

My characters, for one, unless they have something in their off hand, or are ambidexterous, etc. use the 2-handed Weaver stance when using pistols.

I say if you have a free hand, and someone is attempting to relieve you of your weapon, you'd use both hands to prevent this. Same with your favorite focus, teddy bear, etc.
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