Layering Armor, how much is too much? Options

[Clank]

Question:

If you layer more than two types of armor (if it's even possible). after the second highest number, should you still half the amount?

Example:

PC has Quickness 5

Secure Clothing (3/0)
Secure UltraVest (3/2)
Real Leather Jacket (0/2)

Do I ignore the fact that he has a Secure shirt on (only count the Vest and Jacket since one could wear both) and give him 3/3 (3+0/2+1) and only consider the Secure clothing if someone wants to do a called shot to his legs, or is all this layering possible and he has a 4/3 (3+1+0/2+1+0) with a +1 TN to Quickness rolls?

I'm wondering because I have a PC who thinks he can wear secure clothing underneath a jumpsuit and wear a Secure Long Coat over both and walk around with his Force 5 sustained Armor focus. Not counting the Clothing, this gives him 10/10 (I can buy wearing a jumpsuit and long coat, but clothing underneath?), and with clothing an 11/10. I know I'm harping over one point here and the TN penalty is gonna be big for him, but c'mon, this is getting ridiculous.

Help please. :)

[Smiley]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that if you layer more than 2 pieces of armor, you walk around looking like a punching bag and that the third piece of armor (the one on the bottom) only adds 1/3 of it's rating. Am i imagining things?

EDIT: I just looked it up. Page 285 in SR3. Only add the rating of the top layer to half the rating of the next layer. I guess i WAS dreaming that thing about 1/3.

[JaronK]

I believe you can only layer two items, but that some things like security helmets and riot shields can be stacked on too. I think form fitting armour has special rules in this department but I'm not sure. The best you can do with the basic book is heavy security armour with a helmet and large riot shield, with maybe a securetech ultra vest underneath (since I don't buy layering something other than a vest with security armour). The result is 7 (security armour) +1 (Helmet) + 2 (Large Riot Shield) + 1 (Half Ultra Vest) / 6 (security Armour) + 1 (Helmet) + 3 (Large Riot Shield) + 1 (Half Ultra Vest) = 11/11, before adding on spells. The force 5 armour spell would take it up to 16/16.

Note that the spell causes you to glow, which can be a serious problem. Also, your TN penalty would be 13 - quickness, which would be a killer.

JaronK

[Smiley]

FFBA adds to the armor rating normally, but the points it adds don't count towards encumberance. If the FFBA puts your armor rating over your quickness, you don't get penalties because it's like spandex. It's so close-fitting you barely even notice it.

[Phaeton]

[Smiley]

Page 51 in CC. FFBA doesn't count towards combat pool loss.

[Glyph]

Some people interpret the rules to mean that only the highest two ratings count for layering, while others interpret them to mean that you take half of the rating for the second and subsequent pieces of armor. The latter explanation makes more logical sense to me, but opinion is very divided on the issue. Now, if you are the GM, and you don't like a lot of layering, then you might want to use the first interpretation (only the highest and second-highest rated layers count).

Note that the highest two ratings could be different for impact and ballistic. For your example of:

Secure Clothing (3/0)
Secure UltraVest (3/2)
Real Leather Jacket (0/2)

- The character would have 3 (highest) + 1 (3/2 for next-highest, rounded down) for 4 ballistic armor; and 2 (highest) + 1 (2/2 for next-highest) for 3 impact armor.



Some things to keep in mind:

Layering is plausible with things like form-fitting armor (underwear), a Sleeping Tiger line suit (clothing), and a secure jacket (outerwear). But things like trying to layer a secure jacket and a long coat, or secure clothing and an jumpsuit, will be more problematic. I guess it depends on whether you see the jumpsuit as being more like clothing, or more like outerwear.

Remember that none of this armor is hardened. If he gets shot with a Streetline Special, he still has to roll against 2 (the lowest a TN can get) L. If someone stages damage up to Deadly, he has to roll 8 net successes to stage it down to nothing. Ranged combat pits the attacker's skill and Combat Pool against the defender's Combat Pool and Body, so a high ballistic armor rating won't help you enough if your Combat Pool and Body are low. Excessive layering can whittle down your Combat Pool, and since this guy has a sustaining focus, I am assuming he is a mage, and doesn't have a super-high Body. So he is hardly the tank that he imagines himself to be.

Not only is the glowing aura of an armor spell the equivalent of wearing a bullseye on your chest (as far as drawing enemy fire, especially with the prevalent 'geek the mage first' mentality), but a sustaining focus will be a problem when you are in an area with wards. You either keep turning it on and off, or risk alerting the enemy mages when you smash through a ward with your active focus.

[Necro Tech]

Also remember that the quickness penalty counts towards movement and every skill linked to quickness. How do you function with + 5 to all quickness skills AND -5 to your actual quickness. As far as clothing goes I only allow two items but remember, you can always add the cloak.

P.S. Also I believe nothing stacks with security armor. Could be wrong but I know you can wear nothing under it because it is custom tailored to fit like FFBA.

[Zeel De Mort]

I think it's just military armour that specifically says you can't wear it with anything else. I'm sure you could wear FFBA with security armour if you want.

[Smiley]

Zeel de Mort's right. It's military armor that's totally exlusive. I'll post a page number in a second.

EDIT: Page 51 in Cannon Companion

EDIT AGAIN: Security Armor is decribed in SR3, page 284. It doesn't say anything about not wearing any other armor with it.

[Moonstone Spider]

If the Guy's using magic it's obvious he's not going to be using his pistol's skill, so the quickness penalty won't mean much as he can just burn his opponent's away with a Manaball (Will Linked).

I know of at least one person who built a character entirely around strength-linked skills (Heavy Weapons at long range, melee for close) so that he could pile on 40 points of ballistic armor on his cyberlimbs (+8 to total) and still layer armor like crazy, plus a riot shield. He had no Combat Pool at all and something like a +16 to quickness but since he used an Ingram Valiant and a Claymore it didn't mean a thing. And the cyberware added 4 to his Troll's Body so he got to throw almost 20 die against anything hitting him. The Fragger could casually soak his from an Assault Cannon.

[Smiley]

40 points? What was he wearing?

[Siege]

[Moonstone Spider]

You can actually hit 60 points of cyber-armor if you go all the way, 10 to each limb, and 10 to front and back Torso. That'll give you plus 12 to your armor rating although for some inexplicable reason cyberarmor adds to combat penalties even though FFBA doesn't.

Come to think of it if you use Ablative (Illegal at Chargen) you can get 60 doubled points of Armor and add 24 each Impact and Ballistic to your default Armor. Coupled with an Armor Spell and some nice basic Armor you could probably make a Tank for whom even APDS ammo is about as Effective as a thrown Tomatoe.

[A Rodent of Unus...]

A Torso cannot support 20 points of armor. An obvious one only has 7 CF; 20 points (10 on front and back) is 10 CF, and that's assuming either Ballistic or Impact. An obvious skull can only support 4 points.

So assuming you somehow can miracously afford all of these limbs and all of that armor (in both Essence and nuyen) at character creation -- and somehow manage to make the cost actually worthwhile since all that armor is worhtless without a high Body to take advantage of it -- the most overall armor you can have is 11/0 or 0/11 or 6/5 or 5/6 or something in between depending on how you purchased the armor.

So yay, your max Ballistic armor is going to be about 17 (since you're now stuck at an overall Quickness of 4, so anything more will make you a walking target) with a Long Coat and Form-Fitting Body Armor. Maybe a bit more with a shield since that wouldn't be outrageous since you're already an idiotic character to begin with. Good for you. 'Course, the lowest an attack will get is a Power of 2, so a Light Pistol is now as deadly as a Panther Assault Cannon to you. Here's to hoping you managed to get a really, really high Body score so you could soak it up each and every time... 'cause you still need at least 8 dice to completely soak a 2D attack, plus match almost every successes your opponent makes.

[paul_HArkonen]

And so to answer the questoin in the topic "How much is too much" there's no such thing as too much if you can still move

[Smiley]

The slower a tank like that is, the easier he is to pelt with Great Dragons. (The projectiles, not the creatures... although he'd be helpless against them, too.)

[toturi]

The answer to the question is, of course, as much as you can layer without losing combat pool or incur Quickness penalties.

[Wounded Ronin]

If the guy goes around with that much armor, have the enemies try to run him over with a Citymaster. He'll fail any kind of dodge test and get hit by the Citymaster. Even if he soaks all the collision damage you can have the Citymaster park on top of him and pin him under a wheel.

[shadd4d]

Ah yes, then it's batting practice time. Just make sure he can't do something irritatingly effective and levitate the van.

Don

[TinkerGnome]

If I see someone levitating a citymaster, I'm the frag outta there. That'd be, what, a +100 TN modifier? How much do those things weigh? The armor on them is 1250 kg alone.

[Smiley]

Use anything that does naval damage. I hear sea sabers are effective.

[Misfit Toy]

I'd just pull out a pair of SMGs and launch four 9-round bursts at him and load it up with tracer rounds and just two regular rounds. Your TN will almost be guranteed to be 2, so almost all of your attack dice will be successes. He'll then have to soak four 2D+(successes) and he'll run out of Combat Pool pretty quickly unless he's stupid enough to rely solely on his Body to hold it off.

[toturi]

[Capt. Dave]

I wasn't aware you could use a laser sight when firing two weapons...

And wouldn't 9 rounds be full autofire? I mean, HV weapons can shoot 6 round bursts, but 9?