Layering Armor, how much is too much? Options

[Arethusa]

Nothing says you can, nothing says you can't. Ultimately, it's a GM call, just like Smartlinks and akimbo firearms. And, yes, 9 rounds, at least by canon, would have to be full auto. Don't know how you could throw out 9 round bursts, much less four of them, but that's at least not possible per canon, far as I know.

[Misfit Toy]

No, there is something that says you can't. You can't use any targeting devices when using two weapons. It's not a GM's call anymore than saying that you never suffer drain when casting a spell is.

About the bursts, I was a little stoned on pain killers when I wrote that. I intially had short bursts in mind then changed my mind to full-auto ones with tracers without changing the rest of the post. In any case, even a troll with Body 11 isn't going to be able to make 8+(however many you made) successes he needs to completely ignore the attack. Since he wasted all his funds and Essence on cyberlimbs and armor, he's not going to have much of anything else to rely on... and most implants that grant extra Body (Dermal Sheathes, Bone Lacing, etc.) are incomatible with more than two or three limbs if memory serves.

Let's see, four obvious limbs, an obvious torso, and an obvious cyberskull takes up 6.25 Essence and costs 425,000 nuyen. As alphaware, that's 5.00 Essence and 850,000 nuyen or 425,000 nuyen used. The ballistic (10 in each limb, 14 in the torso, 4 in the head) and ablative (10 in each limb) costs 425,000 nuyen on top of that. All for Quickness 4, Strength 4 (or as appropriate to race), and 11 points of Ballistic Armor.

Pretty much a waste considering a single capsule round can still take him down.

[toturi]

Yes, but tracers still only work at ranges beyond Short and they only give a single -1 TN mod.

Also I was thinking how you could put out 4 3-round bursts but forgot to edit.

[TinkerGnome]

[Misfit Toy]

Or as clarified in the Advanced Rules on page 94 of the Cannon Companion:

[Moonstone Spider]

[Misfit Toy]

Oh, I'm sorry. We're talking Fantasy Land where characters get to have MilSpec armor, too. :)

[TinkerGnome]

Damn rewritten rules ;)

Frankly, it's kind of stupid that you don't get the laser sight modifier if both weapons are firing at the same target.

Though "imaging systems" isn't very specific. It doesn't really preclude cybernetic vision magnification, because if it did, the same logic would inidcate that you couldn't use cybernetic thermo or low light when using two guns.

[Misfit Toy]

Well, if it precludes imaging scopes, it should preclude vision magnification since they're essentially the same thing. The rules even refer to imaging scopes.

[TinkerGnome]

"Imaging systems" is a specific type of weapon accessory. Vision mag works "in the same manner" as a specific type of imaging system. Thermo and low light work in a manner that is the exact same as the imaging systems of the same name. I'd have no problem with a GM call that you can't use cybernetic vision mag, but I think there's a case for ruling the other way, as well.

The rules on two weapons are already so bad that there is virtually no reason to ever use them. The rule might as well be "you can have a gun in each hand, but you can't fire both as one action". Since if you're dumb enough to do it for a foe beyond your short range, you're probably going to just generate two misses.

[Misfit Toy]

Well, considering all the other examples they included (and they were just inclusions, not an all-encompassing list), I'm sure they intended vision magnification to be one of them. Mechanically and descriptively, they're identical to the scopes... just one's a cybernetic version while the other isn't. Notice how they also listed both smartgun links and goggles, too.

[TinkerGnome]

That's not my point. My point is that reading immediately leads to the same arguments being equally valid for thermographic vision which is something I'm assuming everyone pretty much believes should work, reguardless of the number of weapons you're firing. The list doesn't specificly preclude any cybernetic vision systems for the simple reason that it doesn't say anything about them. It's a pretty logical step to disallow the vision mag, but that same logic step can also be used for disallowing other vision mods which I'm guessing most people think should apply. Which really just bats it back to a GM call.

[Misfit Toy]

Gotcha. I still think the context is pretty clear; anything that modifies the actual target number via technology is right out. Range finders, laser sights, and imaginag scopes are all included there. Thermographic vision and other visual mods, while they do come into play, aren't really modifying a targeting modifier but a general vision modifier that applies outside of shooting someone.

But I do see where you're going. I'm just a firm believer in going with the context instead of the literal word.

[TinkerGnome]

Another way to look at it is that modifiers which are very specific to one weapon (smartlinks and range finders are, sort of) can't modify the target numbet since two weapons are firing. Imaging systems don't work because they're right there on top of the gun and you'd have to look through two scopes at once to get the bonuses. A global vision modifier, such as that provided by cybernetic vision may or may not fall under the umbrella of what isn't allowed, by GM fiat ;)

[Moonstone Spider]

[Lord Ver'an]

As I understood it, the reason that you could not apply targeting mods to two weapons is because when you are firing two weapons at different targets, you are not so much aiming the weapons with your eyes but pointing them. Aiming a gun at one point requires a decent amount of concentration that doesn't work with more than one gun. Try focusing on two seperate spots at once - it doesn't work. However, it wouldn't be as bad if both guns were aimed at the same target. I'm tempted to houserule that some but not necessarily all image mods work with two guns only when both are aimed at the same target...

[Cursedsoul]

If you want to fire two weapons at once do this:

1)Get a cybernetic finger extension for your trigger finger giving you like, an extra inch or two of reach. Alternatively, you could superglue a piece of flat metal to the underside of your trigger finger.

You could also be a troll.

2)Take two SMGs and superglue them together.

3) Cut off the trigger guard

4) Make up an edge called Ham Fisted That gives you really big hands, and make sure your character has it. If you are a troll, ignore this.

5) grab, aim, fire.

You could fire both weapons at once, be able to aim through a scope on one (the weapons are going to be shooting at basically the same area so it won't matter very much TN wise), and with the fact that you can have two gas vent IV's, a natural strength of 12+ using strength boosting cyber/bioware, and two underbarrel weights you get a grand recoil modification of 12, giving you 4 bursts without any recoil whatsoever.

You'd also get 4 10S shots if you you the Ingram with 7M base damage and no FA mode.

Far as I'm concerned this is all canon because your dual SMGs would technically be two weapons but also qualify as one really big fraggin' weapon.

And for my on-topic portion of this post...

For the walking armored tank, have him fall down a man-hole.

Also, have him conveniently trip over a branch (with the Quickness penalties he'll surely fail) and fall face first on a on a freeze foam mine filled with knock-off freeze foam that works the same, but just isn't porous enough to allow breathing. Oops. Sorry buddy, looks like you just died in an embarassing way. But cheer up, we can always melt you down for scrap or use you as a battering ram.

And can't you just have the mage just bug zap his brain?

[Glyph]

That's the funny thing about most munchkins. Not only do they create characters with glaring weaknesses, they can't even metagame properly. They work the character for the best numbers, winding up with a crazy-quilt background of fractured logic to (attempt to) explain it. But they don't metagame enough... they don't think through what the actual in-game advantages will be. If you min-max to the point of cheesiness, you tempt the GM to respond with an equal amount of cheesiness, either out of vindictiveness, a desperation to salvage their campaign balance, or a desire to "challenge" the character. If you're good beyond a certain point, all you do is cause the opposition to increase along with you. It's better to be really good at something, and well-rounded in a few other areas, than to be totally unstoppable in one area.


But as I pointed out, this guy is hardly a tank. It would be more fun (and humiliating) to have a few gangers with Streetline Specials take him down than to break out the Panther Cannons and Citymasters.


One quibble on tracer ammo - the TN bonuses are cumulative, so a 10-round full-auto burst with 3 tracer rounds in it would have -3 TN.

[Zeel De Mort]

[toturi]

[Zeel De Mort]

Ah yes, I'd thought of the hidden life trick. Unfortunately that grants you regeneration, which could be problematic with all that cyberware..

Quickened/tattooed armour spell would work though, it's not like such a character would be subtle.

[Glyph]

A nasty combo would be an adept who is either a serviteur or the recipient of a spirit's Hidden Life power, in a suit of heavy hardened military armor (including helmet). Add 11/11 to twice Essense (which would be even nastier if it was a shapeshifter adept, although most 'shifters would probably be too claustrophobic in military armor), and keep in mind that it's all hardened armor. The only thing worse that I can think of would be a great dragon who was the recipient of a spirit's Hidden Life power.

[Zazen]

[ShadowGhost]

[Moonstone Spider]

I've never been able to figure out why FFBA comes with no penalties, due it's it's great close fit, while armor that's actually built into your body somehow carries a hefty penalty.