 Shapeshifter Adepts |
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 Jun 14 2004, 08:19 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 14-June 04 Member No.: 6,401  |
Hey, could someone explain to me why it was ruled that shifted shapeshifters can't use adept powers?
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Jun 14 2004, 08:37 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Paris, France Member No.: 639 |
I think the reason would be that their adept powers are linked to their human form.
Personally, I think something is wrong with this rule, partly because the magician shapeshifter can still summon spirits and cast spells in animal form. As a GM, I think I would houserule the following: - when learning a power, an adept shapeshifter must state in which form it works. - for each power, the adept shapeshifter can buy an "option" or "extra" that reflects that the shapeshifter trained himself to use this power also in the other form. Maybe the cost would be 25% of the original cost of the power. - If the adept shapeshifter had taken a geas option on this power, the geas is now applicable on the use of the power in both forms. If the adept doesn't want to have a geas option in one of his forms, he has to fully re-learn/buy the power (full cost). - The GM would have final say on which powers can believably (sp?) be learn in animal form. Also, maybe some (new?) powers could be used to accomplish things an animal form wouldn't be able normally (like speaking, or using tools). |
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Jun 14 2004, 09:30 AM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 14-June 04 Member No.: 6,401 |
But it's the same spirit as it were, it's all the same essence, what the book has done was say, Shapeshifters are all mages, because a shifter adept is impossable. Yes stun damage is the only thing a shifter "fears" but still... I mean things like quick draw as a say an tiger shapeshifter doesn't make sense...but improved ability brawling *specialized in claws or bites* would... With my group it's a house rule that all powers work in shifted form, but if the form can't physically use or do the power then... your SOL... but yeah...
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Jun 14 2004, 10:15 AM
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#4
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
I think the main thing that the writers were thinking was the Improved Reflexes 3 and the initiative boost that shifters get. Together with Regeneration, a high initiative is potentially very dangerous.
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Jun 14 2004, 03:45 PM
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#5
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Why? In 3rd edition regeneration heals stun too.
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Jun 14 2004, 03:57 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 751 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Hamilton.LTG.on.ca Member No.: 2,853 |
I know Shapeshifters can cast spells in there Doggy form, that sif your making a Physical mage, since we are on the topic of adepts.
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Jun 14 2004, 04:28 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 334 Joined: 17-November 03 From: Texas Member No.: 5,828 |
Er? News to me. |
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Jun 14 2004, 04:29 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 10-April 04 From: Chicago, IL...Ich vermisse Deutschland. Member No.: 6,230 |
Check out the 3rd ed companion. It states they heal stun. The example is a magician recovering from drain.
Don |
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Jun 14 2004, 04:35 PM
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#9
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Say it with me,
-Siege |
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Jun 14 2004, 04:35 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
I believe the part you're refering to is how fast a shapeshifter can recover from physical damage caused by drain.
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Jun 14 2004, 04:42 PM
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#11
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Amen to that. In 3rd edition if you read the description of Regeneration it says it regenerates "damage". It no longer says "Physical Damage" like it did in 2nd edition. Stun Damage is damage, and Physical Damage is damage. It regenerates all damage. Merry Christmas. Whil you're making your PC's have nightmares about this, Vampires regenerate, and are no longer dual natured. They also now permanently add their essence to all their physical attributes. Their "Enhanced Physical attributes" poiwer doesn't have a uses per day or a duration, it's always on. Time to kick the living piss out of someone, Vampy style. They also show a much higher chance to be magically active. Regenrating vampire physads, Welcome to your nightmare. |
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Jun 14 2004, 04:56 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 577 Joined: 12-June 04 Member No.: 6,398 |
It's one of those rules I always ignore. Always. Because it's simply ludicrous. Shapeshifters are naturally animals. If adept powers were limited to any form, it should be their animal form, not the mockery they can transform into.
You just have to accept the fact that the designers apparently smoke a lot of crack or something... and things start to make more sense. |
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Jun 14 2004, 05:06 PM
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#13
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
I pretty much agree with you totally, [articularly like you said, animal IS their natural form. |
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Jun 14 2004, 06:40 PM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 14-June 04 Member No.: 6,401 |
Yeah it's a rule that my group ignores too, but still... It's annoying as all hell when you go to a site that *doesn't* ignore that rule... I guess it's time to start doing a lot of convincing and badgering untill he gives in mabey? *snickers*
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Jun 14 2004, 06:42 PM
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#15
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
I'd argue that a bimorph doesn't have a true form, per se.
Shapeshifting is what the creature does -- it may lack social skils and knowledge associated with humans, but the (skill? Spell? Ability?) is inherent and natural. Of course, I may read Terry Pratchett too much... -Siege |
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Jun 14 2004, 11:34 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 606 Joined: 17-December 03 Member No.: 5,909 |
That is a rule my group ignors completely. the ability to regenerate stun damage is way to munchy. Seriously that in itself combined with thier normal powers would make them horribly overpowered and nearly unbeatable. Personally I would rule that they dont regenerate stun damage for game balance purposes.
Since inproved reflexes isnt compatable with any other form of magic or cyberware that does the same thing I would rule that improved reflexes wouldnt work with the animal form it would have to work with human form only. If nothing else but for game balance. House ruleing that all(or most adept powers work in animal form) and allowing shapeshifters to regenerate stun creates the most munchkin of all character types So by some of the rules ive seen tus far you could create a starting character like this Tiger SS physical mage earth elementalist In animal form Body 7(edge bonus attribute point body) Quickness 6 Stregnth 6 Charisma 2 Intilligence 5 Willpower 6 Skills sorcery 6 Brawling 5 Psyad powers are 4 points of magical power geases so it only works in animal form Improved reflexes 2 with the talisma geas of an earring counterstrike lvl 2 with talisma earring geas as well so now we have a mage that can throw around force 4 elemental manip spells with a constant 13 dice and regenerate the stun damage at the end of every combat turn, has a pretty good body and with a decent armor spell sustained can take alot of damaghe down to L and can regenerate nearly any physical damage done to him (except having his head cut off) and on top of that he has 5 INI Die so he will go before most if not everyone else he is facing. Raises hands in air in frustration at the munchkinness of this. Heaven help the GM if this character gets even 30k and 20 or so karma. Surely I am not the only one that sees any type of problem with this? Yes i do realize he will be facing alot of moifiers from drain and whatever physical damage he takes during that turn and large groupes of people and nukes will still kill him but that is true for any character, but he still has a HUGE and I mean HUGE advantage over a normal munchkin mage mage or munchkin street sam. P.S. not sure if the totem modifiers for an earth elementalist would work with a pysical mage |
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Jun 14 2004, 11:55 PM
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#17
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
The earring geas is a bit of an impossibility to pull off since you can't get a piercing. You regenerate.
Drain does not follow normal regeneration rules, stun or not, it comes back at a box per minute. No, I don't see a problem with this. Shapeshifters, like ghouls and metavariants are Optional Rules. Decline the option if you think it's too mucnhy, because in most games it is. Regenerating creatures work best as NPC's or in specialty games where everyone is paranormal. Worse is an NPC Vampire. A nice adept vamp can wear a LOT more armor than a PC can because his quickness will be in the 13-23 range if his essence is full, *not* counting adept powers, and his body and str can be in the 13-23 range as well. Add in his 4x running multiplier, and the fact that astrally you cannot see a single thing wrong with him unless you spend an action to percieve, unlike the shapeshifter that looks like an animal astrally. The vamp can get the same 5d6 initiative. And by canon, the vamp can have cyberware as long as it was implanted before he was infected. See DNA/DOA for reference, the character "Nemesis". The rules that allowed this have never been contradicted in later books. THAT's horrific. |
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Jun 15 2004, 12:04 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 260 Joined: 20-March 04 From: That really good state. Yeah, you know the one... Member No.: 6,177 |
A little off topic, but could anyone tell me where the rules are for a vampire npc?
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Jun 15 2004, 12:46 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 403 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Scotland Member No.: 3,175 |
p46 of Critters, which you get when you buy the GM screen.
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Jun 15 2004, 12:53 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 260 Joined: 20-March 04 From: That really good state. Yeah, you know the one... Member No.: 6,177 |
Much obliged.
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Jun 15 2004, 02:52 AM
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#21
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Glyph likes to point out a more compelling reason that this is powerful: shifters use Reaction for attacks in their animal form. Giving them level 3 Increased Reflexes is giving them +6 melee dice. |
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Jun 15 2004, 02:59 AM
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#22
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Target Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 14-June 04 Member No.: 6,401 |
*BOOM* and the question is still not answered for me *pouts*
Oh well, Short of being able to talk to the people behind the rules, I can't actually get a straight answer... Speculation and house rules are all nice and all, but it'd be usefull to know the *real* reason behind how the rules are. |
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Jun 15 2004, 04:01 AM
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#23
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
We already stated there is no good reason. It's like asking if a tree falls in the forset with noone to hear it makes any noise. There's no right answer.
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Jun 15 2004, 05:55 AM
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#24
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
It's like asking what the point is of giving 'shifters an Essense of 8, when their starting Magic rating is still 6, and they can't get cyberware. Not much point to it. It makes sense for their NPC counterparts, though (since they add it to their physical Attributes in animal form). But that gets into yet another of my old rants about shapeshifters - how I hate it when there is one set of stats for NPCs, and one for PCs.
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Jun 15 2004, 07:57 AM
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#25
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,312 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
*huh?* Must have missed that one ... Care to quote? Whether or not stun is regenerated is always heavily discussed ... just as the question whether or not regeneration only kicks in upon reaching (physical) deadly *Text can be interpreted that way* |
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