 2064:Genetics and You, What if? |
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  Jun 17 2004, 04:10 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 280 Joined: 22-October 03 Member No.: 5,757  |
With the major phenotype alteration possible in SOTA...
Is it possible for a human to have his arms lengthened to troll proportions to gain reach in combat? Is it possible for a troll to further increase his reach? Is it possible for a dwarf to lengthen his legs and gain the normal running multiplyer? Is it possible for elf/ork/human/trolls to lengthen their legs to gain a multiplyer in running? Is it possible to alter your arms and legs so you can run on all fours like those African Ghouls and gain X5 multiplyer? Is it possible to secretly genetically modify someone without their knowlege? Repeated injections or food additives and the alteration takes much longer? Is it possible to Cure SURGE? Is it possible to Cause SURGE? Is it possible to introduce some bug genes and have a (meta)human grow a full body hardened exoskeleton? Is it possible to grow extra limbs? Is it possible to alter your body so that it more readily accepts cyberware? (lower essence cost) I'm sure there are a thousand more questions to be pondered. But this is a good start. |
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Jun 17 2004, 04:31 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 8-June 03 Member No.: 4,696 |
These two are definite nos, for the same reasons given in SOTA that you can't change someone's metatype with phenotype alteration or make them Awakened. You could probably cause or remove SURGE-type effects, but they wouldn't have the same astral shadow interaction, and wouldn't be SURGE. |
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Jun 17 2004, 04:32 PM
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#3
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Not by the way it's listed. you can turn one race into another, but by canon races cannot be combined, there are no half breeds. It's all or nothing. Thus I would not allow cross splicing for those specific effects, ultimately it's up to your GM since it isnt addressed. If your GM did allow it Those people would be instantly memorable and suffer a flaw related to memorabiliy and could not take blandness. Essentially most of the social penalties of a metavariant IMHO.
No, the process takes months in a full body vat IIRC, with the subject unconscious.
Edit: NO!
No. I have seen no canon recombinant genetics from those procedures.
No, as even if you could your brain is not wored to do that, or will you wait 15 or so years for you to be competent with the new limbs?
no.
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Jun 17 2004, 04:51 PM
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#4
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
No. Really. We don't even know what genes cause SURGE. |
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Jun 17 2004, 04:56 PM
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#5
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
aaah, awakened genetic shadows or some such.
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Jun 17 2004, 05:13 PM
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#6
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
What surprises me about this whole thing is that phenotypic alteration can't be done with some sort of viral vector. I guess I'm not clear on the months-in-a-tank thing; especially for something relatively simple like calcitonin. That's probably a pretty simple change, biologically, maybe even a gene for a single protein. Why can't you deliver that through a virus? We can almost do that TODAY.
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Jun 17 2004, 05:22 PM
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#7
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
I'd agree no on the extra limbs, mostly because it's such an extreme phenotypic change; you'd have to majorly restructure the entire metahuman body for these new limbs to be even partially effective. However, if youcould there's no canon reason you couldn't learn to use the new limbs over the course of a few weeks of trainning. If it took 15 years to "learn" to use the new limb then it would take the same amount of time to "learn" to use any sort of DNI-controlled cyberware, which operate on the same basic principles. (Edit): As for real-world examples, there are current analogues, although they're not really on the same level yet. |
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Jun 17 2004, 05:24 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 280 Joined: 22-October 03 Member No.: 5,757 |
That's what I ment by being able to change someone slowly over months. Keep infecting them with a retrovirus setting up each stage of changes. I was hoping to use it in a long term plot to bring down a head of the Yaks, by turning him from human into troll and he has no idea why. |
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Jun 17 2004, 09:45 PM
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#9
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Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
The problem with that is that the genes required to effect that kind of change would be far too long and numerous to deliver with a viral vector. Also viruses have specific tissue tropisms- that is a given virus will preferentially infect only one or two closely related tissue types. To get the kind of systemic changes involved in goblinization you would need hundreds, if not thousands of specially designed virus strains each with a different cloned human gene (few of which would fit in a viral vector). The cost would be rediculous. |
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Jun 17 2004, 10:32 PM
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#10
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
No on everything except:
Which is still a no; but you could give someone calcitonin or orthoskin to develop a chitin-like look. |
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Jun 18 2004, 12:54 AM
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#11
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Target Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 16-June 04 Member No.: 6,406 |
Why wouldn't this stuff work?
I can understand the no surge because that relies on magic, but the other stuff all seems possible, prolly for a really high BI. just my .002 -Y- |
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Jun 18 2004, 01:14 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 8-June 03 Member No.: 4,696 |
Some of them may be physically possible, but keep in mind that ensuring the subject doesn't suffer massive health problems once they leave treatment is the real stumbling block of genetic alteration.
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Jun 18 2004, 01:37 AM
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#13
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Basically, because "Major Phenotypic alteration" doesn't allow for gaining any in-game advantages. It's primarily cosmetic. |
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Jun 18 2004, 01:59 AM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 16-June 04 Member No.: 6,406 |
what about the other kinds of alterations, would those work?
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Jun 18 2004, 02:08 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 665 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,834 |
Actually the limbs at least should be possible even with todays technology, though you'd use surgury rather than genetics.
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Jun 18 2004, 02:15 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 8-June 03 Member No.: 4,696 |
I wasn't aware we'd had much luck with lengthening bone...
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Jun 18 2004, 08:42 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 3-April 03 Member No.: 4,370 |
we can. but it's pretty traumatic. you need to cut the bone apart and insert a spacer with a thin mesh so the bone will grow over it. can't move the limb for weeks. or maybe i'm just pulling all this out of my ass ::shrug::
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Jun 18 2004, 12:47 PM
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#18
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
No, I remember watcing a video a few years ago about this little girl who was going through the bone lengthening procedure, they used those really evil looking braces that you anchor in bone to hold in place.
Of course, there is an alternative to the mesh, coral makes a remarkable spacer for repairing bones, as the calcium carbonate is broken down to create bone, the bone simply fills in the gaps. They have had good success with this, but you have to have a ready supply for artificial coral to do it properly. |
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Jun 18 2004, 07:27 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 665 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,834 |
I thought Natural Coral was sufficient. Hmm.
At any rate it's certainly painful, traumatic, and expensive but it's easily possible today. Of course Shadowrun stuff frequently isn't as good as what we have today, their Cell Phones still weigh a full kilogram and their computers sometimes act like they have the memory of a device from 1980, so maybe it doesn't work there. |
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Jun 18 2004, 07:31 PM
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#20
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Problem with nat coral, it's got to be sterilized, which might wash away most of the stuff you need. The video i watched with them using it in surgury showed plani white, few sterile and processed coral like substance
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Jun 18 2004, 07:56 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 173 Joined: 4-March 03 Member No.: 4,196 |
I don't know enough about genetics to comment about genetech, I don't even know if it's possible to do "after market" modifications to DNA. I always thought that was the stuff of movies, superhero comics, and videogames. Compared to other things, the technology should exist for some kind of body sculpting though; either relatively tame stuff from old William Gibson stories or very significant changes.
I can understand why they didn't include it, since the game developers would have to decide how easy it is to accomplish (to get on the streets) and figure out why people would do that in large enough numbers (a socio/psychological issue). They also probably didn't want to add another chapter to Man and Machine. If there were in-game effects, they'd have to (hopefully) playtest it for balance as well. It could also potentially change the feel of the game, but then again they came up with SURGE, which is weirder IMO. You could probably back engineer SURGE minus the magic, and base rules off of bioware or genetech or something. If you have other game books with rules for that kind of thing, maybe try a conversion-- excluding what doesn't fit SR. If you come up with something go ahead and share; always interested in seeing new stuff. |
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Jun 18 2004, 09:20 PM
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#22
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Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
Actually genetic manipulations are fairly common practice in molecular biology labs even today. You can add, remove or regulate genes. The problem is we do it in yeast, bacteria and viruses. Effecting these kinds of changes on a human is far beyond our current capibilites... |
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Jun 18 2004, 10:07 PM
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#23
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
...but we should be there pretty soon. MY lab does genetic work on humans - ex vivo genetic work, but all the same. My ex-roommate is getting his PhD working on a new kind of viral vector for human gene therapy. We are definitely getting there. Whole-human genetic therapy is still scifi, but it's near future stuff. And it'll be damn cool when we get it. :) |
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Jun 19 2004, 01:43 AM
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#24
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,759 Joined: 11-December 02 From: France Member No.: 3,723 |
A major phenotypic alteration can add 1 point to your Body, Strength or Quickness Racial Modified Maximum and Attribute Maximum. SOTA:2063 page 26a. |
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Jun 19 2004, 02:00 AM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,362 Joined: 3-October 03 From: Poway, San Diego County, CA, USA Member No.: 5,676 |
Lengthening limbs would have to be done during childhood.
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