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> Canon Revision Project:Combat Mechanics,thread 2.5, You will lose me if I don't lose you.
Arethusa
post Jun 17 2004, 09:37 PM
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Canon Revision Project: Combat Mechanics, thread 2.5

If you don't know what this is about, check it out. This is more thread 2.5 than 3 because I just have some specific questions to throw out; at some point, if there's interest, I'll get back with some sort of release or progress report. Anyway, here goes.

Shotguns: As far as I'm concerned these have barely been worth the trouble. At present, ditching varaible choke and its messy, messy mechanics, but one thing I'm unsure of is how to handle its damage with hit locations. And, unfortunately, as I mentioned in a previous thread, reliable information in regards to shotgun lethality seems hard to come by. Any opinions or input would be greatly appreciated.

Autofire Hits: At this point, I think I've settled with dividing autofire into (3 round) bursts and rolling each separately. As much as I don't like the extra rolling required, it hopefully won't be too much of an issue. I like Dashifen's highest roll autofire, but it unfortunately is not a mechanic suited to a more revised game of SR that includes, among other things, recoil caps.

In any case, for those that do use hit locations, how do you deal with rounds impacting the target? Do all rounds of a burst (3 or more rounds, depending on how you work with it) hit the same location? Again, any input would be appreciated.

Autofire Staging: I'd kind of like a way to make two round bursts not suck (as, unfortunately, an AN-94 would not be all that great within current SR mechanics). I've considered staging up damage every two rounds, which would leave 3 round bursts with the same Power and Damage Level increases but make 2 round bursts unsucky. I am a little worried, though, that this would be unnecessarily lethal. Hopefully will get a chance to test how this works out practically some time in the next few days. Of course, open to any other suggestions.

PDWs: Not sure yet how to handle their damage code; at present, debating between 6M and 8L. Not sure if the damage should be so hard to resist as 8L, but I'm a little worried that 6M is overly generous with the damage level.


And that, I believe, should cover everything for the moment.

Oh, by the way, still 1 point to anyone who recognizes the thread subtitle, no Google allowed. Just because.
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Entropy Kid
post Jun 18 2004, 05:11 AM
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Shotguns- mcb came up with some rules that people seemed to like.

PDWs- (you might already know this too, but I'm mentioning it anyway) Raygun gives the FN P90 6M and x0.5 armor reduction and the HK P7 PDW 5M with x.0.75 armor reduction; and Austere Emancipator (btw where has he been?) gives the 5.7x28mm 7M with -1 effective armor [or 9L] and 4.6x30mm 6M with -2 effective armor [or 8L]. I suppose you can just run the numbers until you get the result you want to represent.

This post has been edited by Entropy Kid: Jun 18 2004, 05:24 AM
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cutter07
post Jun 18 2004, 05:36 AM
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I take it back, DU isn't nearly as dense as your book of houserules. I wonder why some people don't just write thier own game system altogether.
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LaughingTiger
post Jun 18 2004, 05:56 AM
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wow, cutter, that has to be the best flame bait sig I've seen in a long time.
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Entropy Kid
post Jun 18 2004, 06:00 AM
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QUOTE
I wonder why some people don't just write thier own game system altogether.
From what I can tell that's essentially what he's doing, but it's easier to build based on something, rather than having to come up with an entirely new system from nothing.

Something occurred to me a second ago- if you're not representing damage as abstractly, then perhaps you should do away with success-based damage scaling. Ten net successes and a Deadly wound with normal rules can be anything, a shot through the heart or eye, or a decapitating swing of some adept's katana. Since you're using hit locations weapons should probably just deal whatever damage they deal- using success on attack tests only to determine if defenders can save themselves. This would probably require adjustment to damage codes.
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tjn
post Jun 18 2004, 02:07 PM
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Perhaps excess successes add a modifer to the Hit Location roll.

Or simply eliminating the Hit Location roll and require a certain amount of successes to shift hit locations.
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Shellshock
post Jun 18 2004, 02:42 PM
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My occasional TT gm does something like that.

Stage it up to Deadly, and then anything after that you choose locational damage, or damage effects.


Like our katanaboy He usually stages up to D very easily, so he uses his extra successes to explain that he had severed an arm, or leg, or disemboweled. In theory the person can still be stabalized, but they're a mess :)

And the TT GM lets you sever heads or split bodies in half if you score a double D.
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Arethusa
post Jun 19 2004, 03:43 AM
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QUOTE (Entropy Kid)
Shotguns- mcb came up with some rules that people seemed to like.

PDWs- (you might already know this too, but I'm mentioning it anyway) Raygun gives the FN P90 6M and x0.5 armor reduction and the HK P7 PDW 5M with x.0.75 armor reduction; and Austere Emancipator (btw where has he been?) gives the 5.7x28mm 7M with -1 effective armor [or 9L] and 4.6x30mm 6M with -2 effective armor [or 8L]. I suppose you can just run the numbers until you get the result you want to represent.

I've seen mcb's figures. Partially, I question their accuracy in reflecting shotgun lethality at range, though I'll readily admit my knowledge here is quite questionable, as I've yet to find any information that is terribly credible, much less in agreement with anything else I've found. I also do not like charts and their inherent lack of dynamic scalability. More importantly, however, his figures do nothing to address the use of shot with hit locations, which is where my most major issue lies, at present. At close range, shot essentially travels coherently and hits like a frangible slug. At longer range, it's going to blanket the target, at which point a simple armored vest will do little to protect your face, arms, legs, and groin.

As for PDWs, I was aware of Raygun's numbers, but not Austere's. Personaly, I'm still ambivalent about which more accurately reflects the damage potential of these weapons (in part due to the dearth of reliable practical ballistic information on these), but, as you mention, worst happens, I can just run it and see what works in practice.

QUOTE (cutter07)
I take it back, DU isn't nearly as dense as your book of houserules. I wonder why some people don't just write thier own game system altogether.

Are you for some reasong looking for a fight? If you need to feel better about yourself, I can't stop you, but this is not the place.

QUOTE (Entropy Kid)
From what I can tell that's essentially what he's doing, but it's easier to build based on something, rather than having to come up with an entirely new system from nothing.

Something occurred to me a second ago- if you're not representing damage as abstractly, then perhaps you should do away with success-based damage scaling. Ten net successes and a Deadly wound with normal rules can be anything, a shot through the heart or eye, or a decapitating swing of some adept's katana. Since you're using hit locations weapons should probably just deal whatever damage they deal- using success on attack tests only to determine if defenders can save themselves. This would probably require adjustment to damage codes.

It's not just that it's easier to work from SR as a base than work from scratch; there is also the fact that I would like to play SR with a set of mechanics that are much more realistic. That aside, this is, for me, something of a testbed for a number of ideas that I have considered for putting together my own system. So, really, not completely accurate, but certainly not completely off, either.

The thing about the damage system is that hit locations are not so specific. The system does not have locations for every part of the body from every angle. A hit to the chest could be a pure flesh wound and punch that 7.62x51mm NATO round right through with only a Light wound to show for it, and, likewise, that .22LR could succeed unebelievably and punch right through the aorta. Likewise, a shot to the arm could be a simple Light graze or an artery severing Deadly would. Despite the fact that is many, many orders of magnitude more realistic, ultimately, there's still a definite amount of abstraction in place to keep things playable, and no need to remove staging.
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Arethusa
post Jun 20 2004, 11:58 PM
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Wanted to avoid this, but can't be helped. Bump.

Where the hell are Ray, Austere, and Crusher when you need them?
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I am Jin
post Jun 21 2004, 06:43 AM
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Hmmm... this is far too late to say this, but I've really only just started reading this series of threads, so I'll just add a few cents of my own.

Hit Location: am I the only person bothered by having a random roll to see where I hit someone? It doesn't seem to me that the person with the gun is that far removed from the situation to warrant hitting a random part of the body. Perhaps if they are a spec on the horizon, and you can't really make their arm from their leg, but not when they are ten meters away and the difference between their leg and their head is a good say five degrees or so apart. Or more. Point is that somehow my pistol-hand can move a foot or more completely randomly. I have no control at all. I'd much rather force all shots to be called shots than use a random dice roll, because it seems to me that all shots would be called shots. I don't think "I'm gonna shoot in his general direction" unless I can't see him or he's just a spec on the horizon. Otherwise, I'm probably aiming center-mass, which is a called shot. If I were someone else that I know, I would even break up that 3-bullet burst into: called-shot groin, called-shot groin, called-shot head. Arethusa may remember who I'm talking about. Point is, that person would probably be on par with the skill level that shadowrunners are supposed to be. He wouldn't shoot somewhere in their vicinity and see what he hits unless his eyes were closed or something. Heck, even someone unskilled with firearms as myself could easily distinguish between aiming center-mass, aiming groin, aiming arm, leg, head, whatever. I think I shot (with paintballs mind you, which are far less accurate than bullets) one guy square in the back with well over ten bullets (I wasn't being cruel, in case you're wondering; they were old and weren't breaking) from probably a good 20m away. And I'm not very good at paintball.

So, to close this rant, I would do away with all of these random hit location die rolls and just make the players call their shots. The die roll doesn't come into play unless they are shooting at something they cannot see. This allows for hitting different parts of the body, allows for a vest to not protect anything but your torso, and makes the game go that much faster. Just use different target numbers for different parts. It's also easy to adapt to critters that don't have the normal body parts: what are it's main parts? how easy are they to hit?
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otomik
post Jun 21 2004, 07:20 AM
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i got into making more realistic gun rules for awhile
went with open test style autofire rules with variable recoil
(I had a whole system of converting a damage code into points of recoil so that 9L and 7M were equivalent codes both generating 7 points of recoil and the weapon's size and weight along with accessories generated a certain about of recoil comp)

Raygun's 5M/6M for PDWs is correct IMHO though i marked it as 7L/8L to reflect it's armor penetration and craptacular terminal ballistics.

there's some discussion on why and many others think these PDWs cartridges suck
http://invision.dumpshock.com/index.php?sh...092;.7mm&st=100
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tact...t=000050#000000

personally i don't care enough anymore, i wouldn't re-open that shadowrun firearms project unless someone from the company said they were interesting in a revised version for 4th edition or something like that. I kind of got into Spycraft instead (with the Modern Arms Guide it's one of the best realistic combat systems out there unless you wanna numbers crunch forever Phoenix Command style) and am working on creating a campaign setting with a very Gibson-style setting.

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Person 404
post Jun 21 2004, 08:19 AM
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Worth noting that every random hitloc chart I've ever seen makes the chance of randomly hitting the torso (which would be where the center of mass is located) much, much higher than the chance of hitting anywhere else.
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otomik
post Jun 21 2004, 08:43 AM
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adding hit location is a problem since:
1. all the armor values are averaged for both coverage and effectiveness (Form-Fitting Armor rating are about higher coverage and nothing else).
2. staging up damage implies hitting more effective locations with better staging.
3. it would slow down combat even more

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Arethusa
post Jun 21 2004, 09:40 AM
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QUOTE (I am Jin)
Hit Location: am I the only person bothered by having a random roll to see where I hit someone? It doesn't seem to me that the person with the gun is that far removed from the situation to warrant hitting a random part of the body. Perhaps if they are a spec on the horizon, and you can't really make their arm from their leg, but not when they are ten meters away and the difference between their leg and their head is a good say five degrees or so apart. Or more. Point is that somehow my pistol-hand can move a foot or more completely randomly. I have no control at all. I'd much rather force all shots to be called shots than use a random dice roll, because it seems to me that all shots would be called shots. I don't think "I'm gonna shoot in his general direction" unless I can't see him or he's just a spec on the horizon. Otherwise, I'm probably aiming center-mass, which is a called shot. If I were someone else that I know, I would even break up that 3-bullet burst into: called-shot groin, called-shot groin, called-shot head. Arethusa may remember who I'm talking about. Point is, that person would probably be on par with the skill level that shadowrunners are supposed to be. He wouldn't shoot somewhere in their vicinity and see what he hits unless his eyes were closed or something. Heck, even someone unskilled with firearms as myself could easily distinguish between aiming center-mass, aiming groin, aiming arm, leg, head, whatever. I think I shot (with paintballs mind you, which are far less accurate than bullets) one guy square in the back with well over ten bullets (I wasn't being cruel, in case you're wondering; they were old and weren't breaking) from probably a good 20m away. And I'm not very good at paintball.

I think you misunderstand. With, say, six delineated hit locations, it is not as simple as simply rolling a d6, each number corresponding to a different location. With a 2d6 or 3d6 system, you naturally get a normal or Gaussian/'bell' curve with, naturally, the torso or center mass occupying the most substantial amount of probability. Thus, the normal and not called shot attack is not simply a random distribution over the whole body. Moreover, I have considered and probably will include the ability of a called shot to miss and still hit an adject location at random (though nothing is set in stone at the moment, one possible mechanic being that if the shot would have hit one TN lower, random hit location is rolled— and rerolled— until an adjacent hit location comes up, effectively allowing called center mass shots to be most effective for those with the skill to manage it). Regardless, don't think of it as taking a shot and aiming; if you've done that, it falls under calling a shot and taking an aiming action.

As for suggesting that normal attacks be done away with and everything relegated to called shots, this is largely a terrible idea. For one, combat is not nearly so forgiving, and in a real battle, it is unlikely you will have the opportunity (and, many would argue, the presence of mind, in most cases) to aim for effective body parts. Second, without a mechanic in place to allow for missing the intended area and still landing a shot on target, you end up with some very bizarre and not terribly realistic dynamics. Most attacks in a combat situation are not snap shots from the hip, but they are also not generally targeted shots at specific body parts. In most real life situations, you worry about getting rounds on target before anything else.

QUOTE (otomik)
Raygun's 5M/6M for PDWs is correct IMHO though i marked it as 7L/8L to reflect it's armor penetration and craptacular terminal ballistics.

Personally, I think I'm leaning towards the 8L/9L camp in light of comparison to .17 Hornet. I realize the second link you posted was not exactly unbiased, but I think there's enough of a general concensus there and around most other firearms websites that this is more or less accurate. Hell, I think Ray even mentioned at one point that the 6M was more out of desire to not make them completely worthless than necessarily realistic terminal performance. Debatable, certainly, but until I see something to swing me in the opposite direction, I think 8L/9L is perhaps closest to mirroring real life characteristics.

If you've got an input on the shot/multiple rounds hit location issues from your work on realistic rules, I'd greatly appreciate it. As for Spycraft, I do like it and respect it, but ultimately felt that the direction of superspy movie was not one that interested me. The rules aren't bad, but by and large, they are heavily (and intentionally) built in that vein.

QUOTE (otomik)
adding hit location is a problem since:
1. all the armor values are averaged for both coverage and effectiveness (Form-Fitting Armor rating are about higher coverage and nothing else).
2. staging up damage implies hitting more effective locations with better staging.
3. it would slow down combat even more

1. The revision is farther reaching than this thread lets on. Most personal equipment is being reworked to some degree, and all armor is being redone to accomodate hit locations. eg FFBA would basically be 2/0 across all covered locations.
2. See above note. Hit locations are not so precise as to not take into account varying degrees of success, and I don't feel they should be.
3. I hear it actually isn't an issue in practice, and I'm willing to give it a shot. WIth easily accessible charts, I think it'd be doable, though I will (and certainly have, if you read back) say that it's a concern I've been very conscious of.
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Chance359
post Jun 21 2004, 12:19 PM
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If anyone interested, I've already have all of the pieces of armor converted to a 3D6 hit location table. Then each player recieves a table and a picture so they can place hits and know how much armor they have in that area. Its in an excel file, anyone interested?
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Young Freud
post Jun 21 2004, 02:13 PM
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QUOTE (Arethusa)
QUOTE (otomik)
Raygun's 5M/6M for PDWs is correct IMHO though i marked it as 7L/8L to reflect it's armor penetration and craptacular terminal ballistics.

Personally, I think I'm leaning towards the 8L/9L camp in light of comparison to .17 Hornet. I realize the second link you posted was not exactly unbiased, but I think there's enough of a general concensus there and around most other firearms websites that this is more or less accurate. Hell, I think Ray even mentioned at one point that the 6M was more out of desire to not make them completely worthless than necessarily realistic terminal performance. Debatable, certainly, but until I see something to swing me in the opposite direction, I think 8L/9L is perhaps closest to mirroring real life characteristics.

Eh, I just quit bothering and made all Submachinegun class weapons, with the expection of the Colt M24A3 and the AK-97 Carbines (since the AK-97 SMG is stated to be a carbine version of the AK-97/98 rifles, and the M24A3 sounds like the next in line of the Colt M22A2/M23 series of ARs), use PDW small caliber rounds, with a lean toward 5.7mm since it's more established.

It sounds like a cheat, but I just got tired of all the cramming and kinda "grew up a bit" when thinking about the issue of firearms in SR.
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Phaeton
post Jun 21 2004, 06:38 PM
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QUOTE (Chance359)
If anyone interested, I've already have all of the pieces of armor converted to a 3D6 hit location table. Then each player recieves a table and a picture so they can place hits and know how much armor they have in that area. Its in an excel file, anyone interested?

Sure, I'll give it a shot. Think you can email it to me?
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Arethusa
post Jun 21 2004, 11:12 PM
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QUOTE (Young Freud)
Eh, I just quit bothering and made all Submachinegun class weapons, with the expection of the Colt M24A3 and the AK-97 Carbines (since the AK-97 SMG is stated to be a carbine version of the AK-97/98 rifles, and the M24A3 sounds like the next in line of the Colt M22A2/M23 series of ARs), use PDW small caliber rounds, with a lean toward 5.7mm since it's more established.

It sounds like a cheat, but I just got tired of all the cramming and kinda "grew up a bit" when thinking about the issue of firearms in SR.

That doesn't make any sense, though. PDWs are having trouble catching on now due to lack of lethality. They're an even worse choice when trolls show up. And, besides, PDW cartridges were never intended as general purpose weapons and never will be used as such. It'd make a hell of a lot more sense to simply not bother including PDWs than turn all SMGs into them.
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I am Jin
post Jun 21 2004, 11:18 PM
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QUOTE
Worth noting that every random hitloc chart I've ever seen makes the chance of randomly hitting the torso (which would be where the center of mass is located) much, much higher than the chance of hitting anywhere else.


Well, yeah, the body is a much bigger target than the arms, legs, what have you. Were I to close my eyes and shoot in someone's general direction, I would expect such a distribution. Not so if they are standing 10m away from me, because that is saying that my hand can move randomly within a circle about a meter in diameter without me having any control over it.

QUOTE
Most attacks in a combat situation are not snap shots from the hip, but they are also not generally targeted shots at specific body parts. In most real life situations, you worry about getting rounds on target before anything else.


It's not hard for me to admit that I haven't been in a combat situation. It's also not hard for me to say that neither have you. And it's even easier for me to say that the person I had mentioned HAS been in MANY combat situations, much like, oh, I dunno, a shadowrunner. And in the times I have talked to him there is no mention of "getting rounds on target" as fast as possible. Rather, there was discussion of where one aims. Where one AIMS. His big thing was to do two taps to the groin, one to the head, instead of two to the chest and one to the head, because most people don't wear bulletproof undies, but bulletproof vests have gotten somwhat common. He ran me through a few practices with a paintball gun, and said that the inaccuracy of the paintball gun was not unrelatistic because in combat situations people get nervous and their hands aren't as steady, etc., things I'm sure you taking into consideration. But this paintball gun was still very accurate compared to the randomness of rolling some d6s and seeing where I hit. In half a second (around the time of a simple action for someone like me who would have an initiative under 10[edit] sorry, this is a complete lie. it's actually much, much less than a complete action for a person of my initative[/edit]) I could bring the gun up from hanging by my side to shooting one of several plastic juice bottles (which are much smaller than an arm or a leg, let alone a torso) about 10m away. I did this repeatedly. Sometimes I missed, usually I hit. And as I said last post I'm not very good at paintball.

Point is that I think that in order to have an accurate representation of combat one should first know what it's like to be in combat, or atleast learn as much about it as possible. Since I don't think any of us have, it seems to me that the next best thing would be to listen to what that person had to say about it. And though his words weren't intended to explain how the SR system could be improved, the information he provided and my experiences practicing with him tell me that rolling a d6 to decide where I hit is just plain wrong. Every shot should be a called shot. Perhaps if they almost dodge the shot but not quite, the shot can hit a nearby bodypart instead. Or perhaps if you miss there could be a roll to see if you just get lucky and hit another body part by accident. Who knows, that's a different discussion. But I feel very firmly that if you want to make the system better, every shot should be a called shot with a few circumstantial exceptions.

[edit] ran this thought by some other people, and they said that they agreed with just using a random roll, but their reasoning was that combat would be extremely hectic and that you are really just throwing bullets at other people, and using most of your mental faculties trying to stay alive by whatever means possible. This still strikes me as not completely accurate for shadowrunners. I personally view them as being at the very least reasonably profesional, and any shadowrunner who has lived through two runs should be able to think under fire, and as such should be aware of what's going on enough to be aiming at particular body parts (almost always center mass). If, however, the person holding the gun is, say, your run of the mill security guard, some d6's probably aren't out of the question, since he's a little too worried about his own life to pay attention to where he's shooting.[/edit]
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Person 404
post Jun 21 2004, 11:58 PM
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QUOTE (I am Jin)
QUOTE
Worth noting that every random hitloc chart I've ever seen makes the chance of randomly hitting the torso (which would be where the center of mass is located) much, much higher than the chance of hitting anywhere else.


Well, yeah, the body is a much bigger target than the arms, legs, what have you. Were I to close my eyes and shoot in someone's general direction, I would expect such a distribution. Not so if they are standing 10m away from me, because that is saying that my hand can move randomly within a circle about a meter in diameter without me having any control over it.

Actually, this is saying that the pointing of the gun can deviate 5 degrees from the indended positioning. This only translates to a circle a meter in diameter if

a) You are holding the gun with your arms fully outstretched.
b) Your arms are approximately 5.7 meters long.

That said, I don't have too much problem with having hits default to the torso at short range (which 10 meters falls well within for almost all firearms).
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I am Jin
post Jun 22 2004, 12:08 AM
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The five degrees I just pulled out of my butt, the meter circle, if you want to get even more nitpicky, doesn't even describe the shape of the human body. perhaps you could replace "five degrees" with "a significant angle for this particular instance" and "a circle 1m in diameter" with "an area that is much larger than my hand will reasonably move randomly, without any control on my part."
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jun 22 2004, 03:59 PM
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QUOTE (Entropy Kid)
Austere Emancipator (btw where has he been?)

*sniffle* You noticed... I moved, no net access since June 4th up to 2 hours ago. I think there's something seriously wrong with me, because I didn't completely lose my mind.

How realistic rolling for hitloc is: I do not know a single person who has been in an actual firefight. All my knowledge comes from books and documents about people who have, and that would lead me to believe that "choosing" where to hit the target (other than center mass, anyway) is extremely rare in firefights. This even with people who I would assume are pretty darn good both at shooting and steeling their nerves in stressful situations, such as 1st SFOD-Delta operators.

A few quick-and-dirty fixes (modifications) if you want more flexibility: Allow called shots such as "High" and "Low", with only a marginally higher TN and a modified die roll. With a well designed hitloc table, a "Low" aim could simply be a 1d6+2 instead of 3d6, and a "High" aim 2d6+6 instead of 3d6, or something similar.

In other words, I'm a member of the "all firefights are hectic" school of thought. If it's not hectic, you can just Call a Shot and Take Aim to negate any penalties.

2 vs 3-round bursts: I just did away with 2-round burst groups in favor if 3-round burst groups and have not have trouble suspending my disbelief. The +2 to Power over a single shot is reason enough to fire short bursts in some cases, such as Derringers and similar weapons.

Burst hit location: All bursts hit a single location. Perhaps not as realistic, but much simpler than rolling for every round. Most of the possible logic-problems you can get around with description -- a 3-round burst which scores a "face" hit location could just be a single shot in the middle of the eyes.

PDW Damage Code: Like for Raygun, one of my main concerns was to make them a valid and balanced choice of firearm. I put them at Moderate, because they would have to penetrate really damn well to justify their existance at Light. Note that raising the Power beyond six doesn't really mean shit unless you raise it by at least 3 or 4 points. [Edit]Forgot that in canon it actually does, because of armor penetration... I don't know/remember what kind of system you have for armor penetration of firearms, so I'll just leave it at that.[/Edit]

A 6M is significantly worse than 7M on my system, however, because beyond Medium (or Short, can't remember/decide which it is for PDWs) you start losing Power. 5M at 50-100 meters and 4M at 100-200 meters is decidedly sucky, especially against them trolls.

And just because I like to repeat it often: redoing armor for hit locations is no big deal. An hour or two, tops, if you have any idea how you want the armor system to work. It took me a lot longer just because I've spent dozens of hours trying to balance the armor ratings with the Power and Penetration ratings of the different calibers.

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Jun 22 2004, 04:12 PM
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otomik
post Jun 23 2004, 03:36 AM
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QUOTE
I put them at Moderate, because they would have to penetrate really damn well to justify their existance at Light.

that's not uncommon really, there's a lot of weapons out there that have a difficult time justifying their existence. Dardick Pistol anyone?

PDWs give them a code of 7L-9L which means they really aren't better than a 6L light pistol unless you're shooting at someone armored, that's their niche, they can't justify their existence any other way. a light damage code also means it's irrelevant to vehicles for the most part, something almost all pistols have in common.
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Arethusa
post Jun 23 2004, 09:49 AM
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QUOTE (I am Jin)
Well, yeah, the body is a much bigger target than the arms, legs, what have you. Were I to close my eyes and shoot in someone's general direction, I would expect such a distribution. Not so if they are standing 10m away from me, because that is saying that my hand can move randomly within a circle about a meter in diameter without me having any control over it.

As has been adressed, this is hyperbolic to a point of pure fallacy. And it is quite easy for your hand to deviate a few degrees from target simply by pulling the trigger too soon or too late. Combat is a mess, after all.

QUOTE (I am Jin)
Point is that I think that in order to have an accurate representation of combat one should first know what it's like to be in combat, or atleast learn as much about it as possible. Since I don't think any of us have, it seems to me that the next best thing would be to listen to what that person had to say about it. And though his words weren't intended to explain how the SR system could be improved, the information he provided and my experiences practicing with him tell me that rolling a d6 to decide where I hit is just plain wrong. Every shot should be a called shot. Perhaps if they almost dodge the shot but not quite, the shot can hit a nearby bodypart instead. Or perhaps if you miss there could be a roll to see if you just get lucky and hit another body part by accident. Who knows, that's a different discussion. But I feel very firmly that if you want to make the system better, every shot should be a called shot with a few circumstantial exceptions.

Indeed, learning as much about combat due to lack of access to first hand experience would be advisable— which would include not using a single person as sole basis for knowledge of what combat is like. I'm not casting aspersions on that ex SEAL's character or expertise, but he is still ultimately only on first hand opinion, and it is an opinion that, at least as you related to me, flies in the face of most other material I have encountered on the subject of modern military combat.

Furthermore, rolling a d6 for a called shot is not plain wrong, as the probabilities are distributed such that a shot that does not land center mass can be considered off but still on target, which is, in practical terms, what you are suggesting. As far as mechanics are concerned, calling all shots to the torso is simply nonsensical. If you raise the target number, you've negated the entire point of aiming center mass— namely, greatest hit and incapacitation potential; if you don't and simply say all shots go for the torso at short range, this is perhaps just as nonsensical and makes for an arguably (and with some merit) less realistic game. Aimin center mass is a professional technique and not something extreme unprofessionals are likely to do. On top of this is the fact that combat is, or at least everything I've ever read about it tends to suggest, a very messy thing. Precision aim is generally not something that is a top priority.

QUOTE (I am Jin)
[edit] ran this thought by some other people, and they said that they agreed with just using a random roll, but their reasoning was that combat would be extremely hectic and that you are really just throwing bullets at other people, and using most of your mental faculties trying to stay alive by whatever means possible. This still strikes me as not completely accurate for shadowrunners. I personally view them as being at the very least reasonably profesional, and any shadowrunner who has lived through two runs should be able to think under fire, and as such should be aware of what's going on enough to be aiming at particular body parts (almost always center mass). If, however, the person holding the gun is, say, your run of the mill security guard, some d6's probably aren't out of the question, since he's a little too worried about his own life to pay attention to where he's shooting.[/edit]

As Austere has mentioned and I have been planning, what are useful are general area called shots— namely, high and low body areas, which are fairly realistic and quite playable. I suggest you read back into the last thread or the one before it, as I believe I went into some depth about my desire for emergent dynamics through mechanics as opposed to inelegant static fiat. Those with higher skill will be able to reliable hit with the modest TN increases from a called shot to, say, the upper body area, and will therefore opt for that option moreso than a standard, untargeted shot; those without the skill will still have the option, but with low skill, you generally need all the help you can get, making it not worth the risk when you are already dealing with situational problems that combat imposes. This is much, much more elegant and realistic than simply saying runners always use called shots while untrained guards use random hit locations

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
2 vs 3-round bursts: I just did away with 2-round burst groups in favor if 3-round burst groups and have not have trouble suspending my disbelief. The +2 to Power over a single shot is reason enough to fire short bursts in some cases, such as Derringers and similar weapons.

Damn, remembered you said you were going somewhere about a month ago. Was wondering where you'd gotten off to.

Anyway, on the topic of hit locations and firefights, I think you're aware of my views that the dynamics of shot placement and the like should be emergent from the situation (in mechanical terms, the GM keeping a close grip on situational modifiers), but I guess it's worth restating here for general clarity to rest of the (maybe 2 or 3) people reading this thread.

As for two shot bursts, it's not derringers that I feel are a problem so much as double barreled shotguns, battle rifles, and AN-94s. In those cases, I don't think +2 power reflects lethality at all, and in the foremost example, there's no way to run that as a three round burst. I've considered +1 Damage Level only for shotguns and rifles, but I'm not sure this is necessarily realistic.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Burst hit location: All bursts hit a single location. Perhaps not as realistic, but much simpler than rolling for every round. Most of the possible logic-problems you can get around with description -- a 3-round burst which scores a "face" hit location could just be a single shot in the middle of the eyes.

As much as I would prefer a system that allows for bursts to realistically hit various locations, I really have to agree that there doesn't seem to be any way to make this playably feasible— at least not within a mechanical system that functions like SR's. Was just curious how people who'd used hitlocations first had run with, really.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
PDW Damage Code: Like for Raygun, one of my main concerns was to make them a valid and balanced choice of firearm. I put them at Moderate, because they would have to penetrate really damn well to justify their existance at Light. Note that raising the Power beyond six doesn't really mean shit unless you raise it by at least 3 or 4 points. [Edit]Forgot that in canon it actually does, because of armor penetration... I don't know/remember what kind of system you have for armor penetration of firearms, so I'll just leave it at that.[/Edit]

A 6M is significantly worse than 7M on my system, however, because beyond Medium (or Short, can't remember/decide which it is for PDWs) you start losing Power. 5M at 50-100 meters and 4M at 100-200 meters is decidedly sucky, especially against them trolls.

I can appreciate concerns for balance; I just still have trouble justifying Moderate damage when high power Light seems to perhaps be somewhat more accurate. I remember you mentioned at one point that making them do Moderate was your only justification for 5.56x45mm NATO doing Moderate beyond 150m, but I think I personally lean towards thinking that that would largely qualify for Light. And increasing the power does make it a more lethal weapon when used to saturate a target, which is really how PDWs need and are intended to be used, anyway. Also, as you noted, while I am planning on giving PDWs the .5x AP rifle modifier against soft body armor, increasing power is something of a necessity for penetration and damage irresistability, so to speak. Also, am planning on dropping power at range, though I feel that can still potentially go either way. Ultimately, it's really a debate that I think can go on endlessly with neither side terribly entrenched or much more valid than the other; at worst, if they don't work out in a practical test, can just bump it up a level and drop some power. For now, I'll probably be running with 9(maybe, just maybe 10)L.

And, yes, reworking armor is very, very easy— unless, of course, you feel like getting creative and writing up new stuff with new fluff text. But that is ultimately more a grunt work issue than anything terribly complex.

[edit]

Austere, how do you handle shot (assuming it is no longer coherent enuough to hit a single location) and hit locations?

This post has been edited by Arethusa: Jun 23 2004, 09:51 AM
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jun 23 2004, 02:44 PM
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QUOTE (Arethusa)
I remember you mentioned at one point that making them do Moderate was your only justification for 5.56x45mm NATO doing Moderate beyond 150m, but I think I personally lean towards thinking that that would largely qualify for Light.

Yeah, that was one reason... How do you mean "that would largely qualify for Light"? Do you mean 5.56x45mm and similar beyond 150m should do Light, or that you can better suspend your disbelief with 5.56x45mm doing Moderate than with PDW-calibers doing Moderate?

QUOTE (Arethusa)
I am planning on giving PDWs the .5x AP rifle modifier against soft body armor, increasing power is something of a necessity for penetration

Indeed. Of course, there is not much point us commenting on your choice of Powers, then, unless we see all the Powers and AP mods, or all the armor ratings.

QUOTE (Arethusa)
Austere, how do you handle shot (assuming it is no longer coherent enuough to hit a single location) and hit locations?

I don't. ;) That goes under the same "correction by description" heading as large bursts and hit location. If my players ever bothered me about it (and they won't), I'd just say that BB or even larger shot is the norm, and it has a bad habit of clustering. Not what I'd consider a huge problem -- certainly not one of same magnitude as the current 10-meter diameter shot spreads.
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