 Martial Arts Skills, Where does the madness end? |
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 Jun 18 2004, 05:36 PM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191  |
First off, I realize that I started a thread identical to this one a few months back, but I seem to have misplaced it. That being said, what's the deal with martial arts skills? It says in CC that you can learn a maneuver for every 2 skill points oyu have in whatever martial art. So, since there's 9 maneuvers, you have to know that martial art at 18 to learn them all? But wait, there's more. Some of the martial arts give you the ability to learn to use the maneuvers with melee weapons, which would basically be like needing to learn another 9 maneuvers, right? So you'd have to take the skill to 36. I know I'm missing something. What is it?
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Jun 18 2004, 05:41 PM
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#2
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
You could just learn more than one marital art.
I really do think that the way weapons are handled with maneuvers isn't really worth using most of the time. |
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Jun 18 2004, 05:41 PM
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#3
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Yes because you're not expected to be able to ge tthem all, you have to make choices.
I guess what you're missing is thta you're not supposed to be able to learn all of the manuevers.
Which is okay anyway because those rules suck somehting fierce. |
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Jun 18 2004, 05:44 PM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
You'd still have to learn 36 points worth of fu. While the karma cost would be less, it's still a tremendous pain in the gonads. |
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Jun 18 2004, 05:53 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 403 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Scotland Member No.: 3,175 |
There's an optional rule that basically lets you learn a new maneuver every level of the skill instead of every second level. Costs helluva lot of karma, but it would mean you would only need to take the skill at half the level, if that's what concerns you.
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Jun 18 2004, 05:56 PM
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#6
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Eh. Most of the maneuvers, other than possibly Evasion, Close Combat and Whirling kinda suck anyway. And regardless, no maneuver is worth the 2 points you have to spend on it as character creation, so I'd personally never buy a martial art other than Brawling unless we were using BeCKS. Remember that with all other martial arts you are *required* to buy a maneuver for every two skill levels you have in that martial art, which means that at character creation other martial arts cost exactly twice as many points as any other skill. Considering how generally sucky the maneuvers are, they're just not worth the chargen cost.
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Jun 18 2004, 06:04 PM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
Where does it say you BUY them? I thought you just got one for every 2 points of the skill you have.
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Jun 18 2004, 06:15 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 403 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Scotland Member No.: 3,175 |
p90 CC. The third paragraph under Maneuvers: "Each maneuver must be purchased at a cost of 2 karma each".
The fourth paragraph tells you about the cost at creation. The fifth paragraph details the optional rule for learning more maneuvers. But, as was pointed out, it's unlikely you'll need more than four or so from any particular art, although they are all useful in the right situation. Some much more so than others. I'd agree that most maneuvers for weapons aren't worth the cost of learning, with a few exceptions like whirling. |
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Jun 18 2004, 07:07 PM
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#9
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Here's my little loophole...
While some arts, such as Escrima, allow you to apply a previously-learned Escrima maneuver to a weapon skill, notice that it doesn't say that you had to learn those maneuvers while studying Escrima. If you know close combat, it doesn't matter what skill it's linked with; you can apply it towards clubs. I've discovered that this makes the system run a great deal more smoothly. It does tend to encourage people training to skill 2 or 3 in a lot of different arts, but that's OK in my book-- a lot of real martial artists do the same, only studying a new art until they learn how it works. |
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Jun 18 2004, 07:13 PM
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#10
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
And that's primarily why MA in SR sucks. Assuming you have the attribute req's, you could spend 6 BPs and get Brawling: 6 OR for 2 additional points (thats 8 ) you get Shmuck Fu: 4 w/ kip up and kick attack. Joy. You want Shmuck Fu: 6? Fork over 12 BPs and go pick your manuvers...Sucker :P Eyeless Blonde is 100% right: there are very few manuvers that are worth 2 BPs. Period. Kip up?? We used to just house rule that you could make an Athletics test (Tn: 4 or 5, depending). Kick Attack?? You get a one shot +1 to the Power of that attack and for the rest of the phase everyone gets a -1 to the TN to hit you? WTF?! There's 2 BPs down the tube. The Martial Arts system is pretty much the only system in SR I feel I have a legit gripe with. I feel like I'm being double charged for wanting to add flavor to my character by selecting a HTH combat form that jives with his background instead going with the same ole "Brawling" (sounds like "boring", don't it?). I just can't justify 8 or 12 BPs for what I feel is almost part of the background. As it is now, I sometimes have a little blurb in the background about the char spending some time at a local dojo or being an avid fan of kickboxing or "ninja" movies. That way I can RP that he performs facimilies of the moves w/o the benefits that the CC claim they provide. |
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Jun 18 2004, 07:15 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 973 Joined: 3-October 03 Member No.: 5,677 |
Tough girlfriend again, eh? :rotfl: Sorry. Couldn't resist noticing the typo. :P :grinbig: |
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Jun 18 2004, 07:18 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 194 Joined: 24-January 04 Member No.: 6,013 |
I think one of the snags with the SR Martial Arts system stems from the way that Shadowrun deals with skills in general. In one of these threads before, someone pointed out that if you wanted to make a Ninhitsu based character, you should take half a dozen other skills to get the true flavor of the art.
Well, in almost all cases, Shadowrun takes a skill that would have many component parts and gells them together to one skill just to streamline issues. So, they do the same with martial arts. In reguards to the manuvers, I perfer to go with a 2 for 1 deal. 2 Manuvers for every one Karma point. |
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Jun 18 2004, 07:19 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
Not argueing with you - the whole manuevers concept kind of blows. But the Kick attack isn't too bad for the speedy guy who's got one or more actions after everybody else is done, because then they don't get to take advantage of the -1 TN before the end of the turn. |
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Jun 18 2004, 09:28 PM
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#14
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
It's very true that a lot (or most) of the maneuvers really really bite. The ones that DON'T, however, can be purchased for 2 karma apiece, no matter what your skill is? Is that right?
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Jun 18 2004, 09:39 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 403 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Scotland Member No.: 3,175 |
Kick attack gives you an extra point of reach, not power. So it's actually quite useful in some situations. For example in the case cited above where a superfast guy goes both last in one turn and first in the next one. Or, if you're fighting someone one on one, you can use it to demolish them in one hit. Hopefully! Anyway a lot of the maneuvers definitely do suck, but I think they're generally a good thing and they add a bit more flavour to combat. I'd totally agree that they shouldn't cost 2 BP each though. 1 BP would be much more like it. I guess 2 karma is alright, depends what you're getting for that I suppose. But, for example, Close Combat or Whirling are so useful in a lot of different situations they're easily worth the cost. |
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Jun 18 2004, 09:40 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 577 Joined: 12-June 04 Member No.: 6,398 |
2 Karma per maneuver up to one-half your skill level, 8 Karma thereafter to a max number of maneuvers equal to your skill.
We've completely trashed the way it works by canon rules, though, and instead came up with a system that fits in much better with the way the rest of the skills work while still allowing for the combat options Maneuvers represent. I don't think anyone's interested in house rules in this thread, though, so I won't waste my time on it. :) |
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Jun 18 2004, 09:44 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 325 Joined: 5-May 02 From: Various Planets Across the Galaxy Member No.: 2,689 |
Actually the kick attack is +1REACH, not power. It say it increases the power of the attack and yet...doesn't. :sleepy:
I made a monk guy using BeCKS2.0 and it works quite nicely. 2 karma in this system isn't really a pain unless you're a cheese face and want money.... But really why bother learning a skill at all thanks to the miracles of skillwires? A rating 1 skillwire costs 3x1x500 = 1500 nuyen and 0.2 essence. A rating 6 Chipjack Expert Driver is 30000 nuyen and 0.6 Essence. A chipjack is like, 2000 nuyen and 0.1 essence. Sooo for like 33500 nuyen and 0.9 essence you get 7 dice with any skillsoft. You can pay for this and like, brawling 1 which would cost 3x100 = 300 nuyen for 7 dice :eek: Munch-Cheese powers, ACTIVATE! :noflame: |
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Jun 18 2004, 09:52 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 577 Joined: 12-June 04 Member No.: 6,398 |
Couple problems there.
1) Chipjack Expert Drivers have a max rating of 3. 2) Even Skillsofts have to obey the "no more pool dice than skill level" rule. So at most, you'd only have two dice available. |
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Jun 18 2004, 10:00 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 325 Joined: 5-May 02 From: Various Planets Across the Galaxy Member No.: 2,689 |
Where does it say it has a maximum rating?
And thank you for that reminder...I totally forgot about that in my haste to be really useful to the team via knowledge skills. I guess I was blinded by being useful for a change. Silly me. :( :( :( |
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Jun 18 2004, 10:04 PM
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#20
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Hey, I'm curious. As has been mentioned, the canon martial arts system is pretty damn terrible, and I'll welcome anything that stands a chance of making the situation less. Incidentally, one thing that does make things make a bit more sense, as ninjutsu has already been mentioned, is to consider the MA skills to only relate to the pure combat aspects of the art. A 6 in ninjutsu may make you a pretty decently skilled hand to hand combatant, but by no means you are literally skilled in the true art of invisibility. Unfortunately, yes, (even vaguely) realistically reflecting the more complex arts would require many more skills and a lot more advantages and disadvantages, not to mention a lot of game balance issues. |
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Jun 18 2004, 10:06 PM
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#21
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
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Jun 18 2004, 10:20 PM
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#22
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Here, at the very least. The reprints should have further details. But even so, CEDs are really useful, but it emphasizes the inherent problem of skillwires in combat: expert drivers' task pools are the *only* dice pool you can use with chipped skills, so it's usually a bad idea to chip a combat skill anyway. Chipped skills are best with things that require infrequent (eg. one per Combat Turn or fewer) checks, so you can use the whole task pool with each one. That way you cn chip a Rating 3 skill and throw 6 dice at it. |
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Jun 18 2004, 10:25 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 325 Joined: 5-May 02 From: Various Planets Across the Galaxy Member No.: 2,689 |
Ah, The erratta. Thanks. Sorry for making an ass out of myself. I'm really good at it though. :D
Well this kind of poops on my character. I got a bunch of skillsofts so I could be Mr Knowledge Skills. Even so, 4, 6, or 8 dice is pretty good considering the cost. But...now I have 15000 to spend and like, a few hours to do it in. :dead: |
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Jun 18 2004, 10:30 PM
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#24
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
You were probably blinded by the cheese in your eyes. :D If you have to basically cheese the rules to be useful to your team, you need a new team. That's a situation of power escalation. Besides, you dont need skillwires for knowledge skills on chip, you just need a chipjack. So this is all moot anyway. Skillwires are only necessary for active skills. |
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Jun 18 2004, 10:42 PM
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#25
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
15000, eh? Well, you could go with alpha plastic bone lacing; that's always useful. Or you could go the analyst route and pick up an alphaware gas spectrometer with a rating 4 chem program. On the bioware front, you can get a mnemonic enhancer 1 for 15k. Really a good idea for someone with knowledge skills; in fact you might want to free up another 30k somewhere and pick up the enhancer at rating 3 for the extra knowledge skill die. Then again maybe not; I'm not sure if that bonus applies to chipped knowsofts On the gear side, did you remember communications? You can get a sweet setup for 15k there: a rating 3 microtranceiver, a pocket sec, and rating 5 broadcast encryption (always go with odd numbers on broadcast encryption; 3 is good for a starting character, 5 is wonderful, 7 is godlike). |
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