 Man, I wish my Grandpa had designed Manabolt..., I'd be rich! |
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 Jun 20 2004, 03:39 PM
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 460  |
Just an interesting quirk I noticed in MitS: pg 47
While we all know Shadowrunners are going to get black market versions of any spell that isn't specifically public domain, the corps will mostly like have to buy actual versions of the spell. What's more is if they work anything like today's computer companies, they'll have to buy individual formula for each mage they have on staff whose going to lean it, same with universities and the like. That's quite a racket |
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Jun 21 2004, 01:29 AM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Winston Salem, NC Member No.: 1,359 |
I really like that idea. That opens up some ideas of trying to get someone to sign over future revenue to an existing spell as a short, off hte cuff run, or as a plot element to something deeper.
--MagicSoft Astral Windows Version 3.1-- Buggy as all get out, but it can come in useful ;) |
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Jun 21 2004, 01:32 AM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
Universities will have you learning "healthy glow" and other blissninny spells, never combat spells "violence never solves anything" and most companies fearing litigation would never teach anything but stunbolt. how do you patent a spell? might the same spell like stunbolt have a different forumula depending on a different traditions? (hermetic, shamanic, wujen, druid, kabbalistic, tantric) might there also be a billion different claims to the same spell? with archeologists finding evidence of earlier versions from the 5th or 4th world? (who patented the wheel?) patenting a spell is interesting but the kinds of spells would have to be soo specific that it wouldn't effect player characters unless they were playing research mages. http://www.harvard-magazine.com/issues/ja9...ght.patent.html
so is the Manabolt patent a concept like "a scalable spell designed to destroy both a single living individual or magical entity" or an actual formula and somehow i can only see easily definable formulas applying to hermetic mages anyway. |
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Jun 21 2004, 02:07 AM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 460 |
Spells regardless of Tradition have the *same* formula. Only the way that formula is represented in regards to the Tradition varies. Seeing as the game states reverse-engineering the Formula (not the representation) is illegal, one would assume that Tradition representation is just a language. If I translated SR3 into Italian, I couldn't sell it, as the rights are still held by FanPro regardless of the language it's presented in. Manabolt is a spell. It has a set formula to learn (for each Force). This formula is inmutateable. Once a spell has been designed (or discovered) that's the formula it will use forever and ever. So yes, there is a single direct formula for a Manabolt 5, that can be copyrighted or patented. As it's intellectual propery, it's much more likely to exist under copywright laws then patent laws. Same goes for Stunbolt, Chaotic World, and Treat. I imagine whomever first created the spell would also control all the copyrights for various forces of his spell as well, as they're all related to the initial formula. Some are just smaller parts of it, while others include even more detail. I couldn't sell half of the BBB as my own product, no more then I could re-edit the BBB and add 10 chapters of my own rules and then try to market it after all. Wether you call a Manabolt a Manabolt, or a Willpower Attacking, deadlinesss staging mana direct damage effect, or a Mojo Fryer it's still a Manabolt. If a spell by another name has the same effect, it's still just a manabolt by another name. Also, keep in mind that there are spells in the public demain. I simply chose Manabolt cause it's one of the most common spells in the game world when I made my above title. Manabolt could very well be public domain.
So what if a university only teaches Healthy Glow? You're incorrectly making the connection that my post was only talking about Manabolts. I can see why you could possibly make that connection, but it's wrong. It's just talking about the money making potential of any spell design, considering it's low cost to produce. The university is still going to be required to buy copies of Healthy Glow, and every student taking the course is going to be required to buy a copy as well.
Spells are specific. They have specific results and as stated above if a spell creates the exact same effect as an illusion, it has the exact same formula as an Illusion. You can't create an entirely new formula for a new Illusion spell. The only thing you can do game wise, is create the exact same spell by working out what the Formula for Illusion is. A formula for a spell is the same as a recipe for Pepsi. You could reverse engineer the ingredients to create a pop. However, that pop would be Pepsi. Not a new form of pop you could market. If you changed the ingredients a bit, you'd have a new pop entirely, but it would not be pepsi. It might taste similar, but it won't taste the same, even if the average observer could never tell the difference. (editted to add Quotes and add a bit on a point I missed) |
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Jun 21 2004, 02:15 AM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Winston Salem, NC Member No.: 1,359 |
@ Nephyte re: Healthy Glow
And will they be popular on Monday mornings :silly: You could pay for beer money or books by making yourself available to the heavy partiers for :nuyen: :nuyen: |
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Jun 21 2004, 02:44 AM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 260 Joined: 20-March 04 From: That really good state. Yeah, you know the one... Member No.: 6,177 |
Its my belief that the worst examples of real life corporate duplicity pale in comparison to standared corporate policies in SR. Renraku isn't going to pay you one red cent for something they can get for free. Who's to say their Willpower Attack is just a rip off of your Mana Bolt? Is there any way to tell for sure? I personally feel that Joe Citizen, SINless or not, has little legal recourse against any corp, let alone the Big 10. Even if you did take them to court (if such a thing is possible in 206X) they could just tie up the case with legal wangling that your lone idealistic young lawyer could never match. I understand that everyone has a different view of how monolithic the corps really are, but big business pulls these kind of stunts even today. I hardly think they would bat an eye in an environment like SR.
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Jun 21 2004, 03:03 AM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Winston Salem, NC Member No.: 1,359 |
@KillaJ
I think it comes down to cost analysis. Which costs less in time, resources and pulblic image. Stealing from Joe the Mage Inventor and fighting him in ocourt? Or paying the licensing cost. And I am sure that the answer will be different for each spell and each corporation. You know Dell could tie Microsoft up in court for years with questions about distributing a 'pirated' copy of Windows that they don't pay fees on, and by the time the case was resolved, most of those users would have already moved on to an updated OS, if not entirely new computer. But they DON'T. The money is a factor, but in reality, the public image makes a big difference at the sales counter and at the stock market. Let me give you an example, when is the last time you heard 'Happy Birthday' at a restaurant. Several chains got hit by law suits for using the lyrics without permission. Now they use something else if they sing a celebratory song. Why? Because it is cheaper in the long run. But this is all just fluff and possible adventure hook stuff anyway. |
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Jun 21 2004, 03:26 AM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 260 Joined: 20-March 04 From: That really good state. Yeah, you know the one... Member No.: 6,177 |
Those are all excellent points. I agree that they would all apply to a real company, but I think that concerns like public image fall by the wayside in the SR corporate culture. If Aztechnology can stay at number 2 with the kind of egregious violations that they are notorious for I think a minor thing like this would be rather innocuous. Have you checked out Shadowbeat lately? Their are some great examples of the "news" your average viewer gets. Besides, thats what the PR department is for. Even today, the fines many companies receive for some rather serious infractions makes it very cost effective to just pay the fine rather then address the issue. Besides can a regular citizen even take a real corp to court?
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Jun 21 2004, 04:16 AM
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#9
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
That's not correct, according to corporate Shadowfiles Reputation is paramount, in the statistics of a corporation, no stat, nor it's finances can be higher than it's reputation rating IIRC. Aztechnology has the highest or second highest (IIRC) reputation in the eyes of the public. They are the bright shining mega. The shadows know differently but that affects the public not at all, as all major media is owned by megacorps. Ananlogies to modern day business down work in this regard because the rules and the playing field are entirely different in SR. |
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Jun 21 2004, 04:21 AM
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
My impression is that Aztechnology stays at #2 largely because most people dont even *know* theyre dealing with them. How many Stuffer Shack patrons do you think are aware of who owns that particular chain?
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Jun 21 2004, 04:27 AM
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
No, they're #2 in the department of public opinion, if you asked the people of earth in polls, to rank the corps on earth in the order they like best, according to the Corp Download Aztech would be #2, behind I think S-K. This means people DO know they buy piles of good Aztech things, and they like the company.
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Jun 21 2004, 09:07 AM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 2,030 |
On the original topic:
One problem I see is that not all Manabolt-effect spells (i.e. spells with the same game mechanics) have to use the same formula, even if one formula can be translated into different traditions. There is probably at least a dozen of different Manabolt-effect spell formulas, like there are dozens different jet fighter types out there, or different yachts, or different computer operating systems, or different guides to cooking lobsters, or... Damn, there are different *gaming systems* out there, and they all perform the same function - let you play a RPG - but are published by different companies. Two things that perform similar functions can be two different patents (of copyrights); take a look at *guns* in SR. There's a lot of 9M damage heavy pistols, manufactured by different corps, under different patents/copyrights/trademarks/whatever. About the same is true for SR cars, attack programs, radios, ... Why should magic be an exemption? MitS lets a mage design a new spell formula, based on the intended function of the spell, and then copyright it. I can see the ads: "Arm your personnel with brand new powerful magic. A stunning StunBeam 4.5 spell formula from MojoBlast, an Ares Arms company, offers the power you need. Brand new techniques for drain dissipation, unparalleled precision of neural system-specificity in the target, minimized chance of accidental physical damage, near-instantaneous full spell effect - all in one package offered at an affordable price of 3000Y. Owners of 4.2 or higher StunBeam licenses can purchase upgrades at 50% cost of the new product! Stun your opposition with StunBeam 4.5!!!" |
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Jun 21 2004, 09:20 AM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 606 Joined: 17-December 03 Member No.: 5,909 |
Im pretty sure most magically active students would buy an intoxicate and detox spell fourmula. I KNOW I WOULD!!!!!! |
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Jun 21 2004, 10:10 AM
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The Azzies don't stay #2, they stay #1, and solidly so. Saeder-Krupp Heavy Industries itself seems much like 3M; sure, ordinary people will come into contact with some parts of the company, but where it exists it'll be so ubiquitous as to be beneath notice. Aztechnology, on the other hand, seems more analogous to Wal-Mart. Some people despise it, but the numbers show that many more love it for whatever reason.
In terms of size, power, influence, overall clout, Saeder-Krupp is king. When it comes to public opinion, it's the Azzies that wear the crown. ~J |
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Jun 21 2004, 10:16 AM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 10-April 04 From: Chicago, IL...Ich vermisse Deutschland. Member No.: 6,230 |
That's a real update. I thought Ares was usually #2 in opinion polls. Maybe that's just from Corp Shadowfiles and their opinion rating: The corporation is God, it can do no wrong.
Sometimes I love the old descriptors in the books. Don |
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Jun 21 2004, 10:39 AM
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#16
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Ares is probably somewhere around #2 in the UCAS. Really, S-K doesn't strike me as a PR powerhouse except when it wants to be. And, since the company is pursuing Lofwyr's agenda rather than the shortest path to more money, that isn't necessarily all the time.
~J |
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Jun 21 2004, 03:54 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 260 Joined: 20-March 04 From: That really good state. Yeah, you know the one... Member No.: 6,177 |
I was unaware of that, thanks for the heads up. |
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Jun 21 2004, 04:00 PM
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316 |
I am not sure that is 100% correct. I will have to go over my GM's house to get my book. I seem to remember a few of the corps have 11 in a few stats, like S-K has an 11 in Heavy Industry, Ares has an 11 in Aerospace and so on, but I don't think any of them have an 11 in Reputation. That is of course if I am remembering the right book. Corporate Download and Corporate Shadowfiles had the rateing system in it, so I am not 100% certain of my thoughts either. |
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Jun 21 2004, 04:40 PM
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
That's because those are not Core Stats. Core stats are reputation, fianance, ect, ect... Those stats are what businesses it does and how much it does them. Kind of like the difference between a corporation's attributes and skills. Finance and Reputation are attributes whereas Aerospace and Consumer Goods would be analogous to skills. |
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Jun 21 2004, 04:43 PM
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Hm. Is reputation defined? We might be talking an entirely different kind of rep for S-K than for the Azzies. For instance, IBM has plenty of rep in the big iron business, but Bob the Wageslave probably won't care even if, for what ever reason, he does know.
~J |
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Jun 21 2004, 05:49 PM
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Reputation was general public perception. The perception of global consumers. as in, "What does the average Joe think about this company".
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Jun 21 2004, 05:51 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
delete double post
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Jun 21 2004, 06:00 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
3M only makes about 18 bill annually, nothing at all
http://www.endgame.org/corps-ranked.html http://www.top500.de/g0030904.htm it is really difficult to know what corp is which, so many mergers and lose alliances. all the zaibatsu/keiretsu try to have business with one another and aren't really competitive amongst each other (one of the reasons japan has such a high cost of living?). just looking at this first chart here Itochu is a very large company but it's part of the Dai-Ichi Kangyo keiretsu, and Marubeni is part of Fuyo/Yasuda. http://cfds.sjsu.edu/professors/watkinst/keiretsu.htm just about any corp can shake a shady past with a few years and name alterations. one of my liberal professors was talking about US dependence on Mid-East oil and talking about how BP didn't use mid-east oil, that there's a chance for consumer activism because not all oil is from the mid-east. but BP back when it was called Anglo-Iranian oil caused a lot of trouble in the mid-east and now they are a huge user of mid-eastern oil ever since they bought Amoco. |
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Jun 21 2004, 08:29 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
that's a practical impossibility. the patent office will be flooded with drawings of astral patterns each slightly different from one another. difficult to enforce, difficult for trials. only people with big money are ever going to get sued for piracy like Special Effects professionals or Private Security Firms like Errant Knight and Lone Star"
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