Magic Damage, I know it hurts, but how bad? Options

[BenLarkin]

I'm having some trouble understanding the damage inflicted by Combat Spells, specifically the Mana Bolt/Ball.

According to the text, the Mana spells are resisted with Willpower. So the way I understand it is, the attacking mage rolls his Sorcery against the targets Willpower stat as a TN. The victim now resists the spell with his Willpower (canceling successes on a 1 for 1 basis). Now if the spell still affects the target, does the poor sap now resist the damage? And if yes, does he use Willpower to resist the damage, or his Body like normal? Seems kinda strange that a target of a Mana spell would essentially be rolling his Willpower twice to resist the full effects of the spell.

I suppose the same question can be applied to the Power spells; Body to resist the spell, then another Body roll to resist the damage?

[Cirenya]

Nope, the spellresistance and the damage resistance is in fact the same test. So the mage is rolling his sorcery dices against TN the victims willpower, whereafter the victim rolls his willpower against the spells force, trying to reduce the mage's succeses, and íf the mage wins, the damage is applicated, no more resistance test.

[BenLarkin]

That means magic is an all-or-nothing damage attack?

hm... not sure if I like that. That means that a Combat spell can only stage up its damage and never be staged down. Either the victim resists the spell completely by rolling equal or more successes then the Mage, or he takes the full damage of whatever that spell was cast at?

[Person 404]

Or more, if it gets staged up. On the other hand, drain codes for combat spells tend to be pretty nasty, which discourages people from casting them at high base damage unless it's a desperate situation.

Edit: And by 'down', I clearly meant 'up.'

[ShadowGhost]

You got it. Spell resistance is All or nothing.

However, the TN of the spell is modified by visibility TN, just as shooting a gun is under the same conditions.

So a human mage casting a manabolt in partial light at a target with a willpower of 4 actually has a TN of 4 + 2 (Partial Lighting modifier). SR3 page 182, last paragraph.

And, TNs of spells are also modified by Cover. Use a mailbox for cover and the TN for that manabolt is 4 + 2 (partial lighting) + Cover modifier (1-4, depending on how much cover that mailbox provides).

So the final TN for the Sorcery test is anywhere between 7 and 10. You still resist the force of the spell.

Also, having party mages allocate spell defense adds extra dice to your resistance test.

Taking the Magic Resistance Edge (1-4) adds extra dice to all magic resistance test. On the downside, it means any spells you are never a willing subject for spells that require a voluntary subject. Such spells automatically fail (i.e. heal, treat and most health spells).

[BenLarkin]

I don't mean to turn this into a heated debate, but I'm having a serious problem with this. A while ago a friend of mine posted a question about Elemental Manipulation spells, and how they size up against the Combat spells.

It was argued that EM spells are just as good because they have secondary effects, can shoot through barriers, affect things you can't see, etc, etc. But you still get a damage resist test against those spells, no? Not only can your target use his Combat Pool to dodge, but then he gets a Body roll to stage down the damage.

Targets of Combat spells can't use their Combat Pools to dodge a Mana Bolt, and the damage cannot be staged down, only up!

Something just doesn't seem right here...

[Lantzer]

The big thing is to not get Combat spells confused with Elemental Manips.

The two work by totally different rules.

A Combat spell is all-or-nothing on anything you can see.
An Elemental Manip is like a gun or grenade.

The only things that are similar between them are the fact the the mage uses Sorcery, and resists a lot of drain.

Edit: Thanks, Clank.

[Lantzer]

On a related note (and what I thought the thread was about at first), how do you guys describe combat spells?

What do their effects look/sound/smell/feel(ouch) like?

[Clank]

Under Spell Effects in SR3 (pg. 183), it says that any successes remaining stage up damage (it's the last sentence in the section). Under Combat Spells (pg. 191) it says that the mage chooses the Base Damage of the spell before he casts it. I don't see the need to call it Base Damage unless it can be staged.

It's funny, but it seems all these rules worked fine until I got a hold of them...

[BenLarkin]

I honestly don't know how Mana Spells ever got through playtesting without someone complaining.

You take a decent mage with a Force 6 Mana Bolt, a Sorcery skill of 6 and a Magic pool of 6, and he's going to be rolling anywhere from 6 to 12 dice to hit a guy. Say that guy has a Willpower of a 6 (highest for most characters).

That mage can toss a 6D Mana bolt, using between 6-12 dice to attack at a TN 6, resist drain at only a 3D with his Willpower and whatever dice is left over from his Spell pool, NOT INCLUDING fetish and foci (which most will have), and the poor sap who is hit by this will only get to roll 6 dice against a TN 6 and hopefully beat 6-12 dice worth of successes, otherwise he's dead?

Toss the same spell at a Willpower 4 guy and he has no chance at all!

This isn't right.

[ShadowGhost]

That's why cover and visibility modifiers apply to spellcasting TNs.

[ShadowGhost]

Dang Double post.

[Nikoli]

It's also why "Geek the mage first" isn't just a cliche, it's a mantra

[The White Dwarf]

I think youre interpreting the rules wrong. Heres an example, after it will follow an analogy with gunfire, theyre really almost the same.

Casting example:

Mike the Mage targets Soylent Sue with a Manabolt. He opts to cast it at Force 5, with a damage level of S. He allocates all of his Sorcery 6 dice to the casting, as well as 2 of his 6 Spell Pool (leaving 4 for drain). Sue has a Willpower of 5, and is in cover.

Mike rolls his 8 dice against tn of 9 and gets 2 successes. Sue rolls her 5 dice against tn of 5, and...

A) ...gets 2 successes. She has tied (defender gets ties for this) the caster, and so fully resists the spell. AND At this point Mike takes drain, and his action is over.

B) ... gets 1 success. Mike has won, so his spell will take effect based on his net successes. In this case thats 1, so the spell is not staged up. Sue takes a Serious. AND At this point Mike takes drain, and his action is over.

Shooting example:

Mike the Mage shoots Soylent Sue with a SMG on Burst fire. He rolls his smgs of 6, plus 2 combat pool, at Sue, who is in cover.

Mike rolls his 8 dice against tn 9 and gets 2 successes. Sue chooses to dodge and rolls 5 of her combat pool agasint tn of 5 and...

A) ...gets 3 successes (which is lucky, since defenders lose ties on dodge). She has beaten Mike and so dodges the shot. Mike could fire again, which would take another round of tests.

B) ...gets 1 success. Mike has won, so scores a hit which takes effect based on his net successes. In this case thats 1, so Sue takes a 9S hit. AND she now gets to make a damage resistance test as normal.

THE POINT:

Youll note that up until the end, the two processes are remarkably the same. Theres a few points of comparison to note:

1) Spellcasting hits the caster. They may not be at great risk of taking damage from Drain, but they do get hit, everytime, garunteed. And if they take a few wounds or penalties, the risk to successfully cast but maybe take drain can become an actual decision, based on how loose or strict your GM is with the various combat modifiers.

2) Spellcasting and shooting both have the SAME resolution mechanic; its just that for spells the dodge test is Willpower, for shooting its Combat Pool. Willpower is used each time but wont run out, Combat pool has to be allocated. Willpower wins ties, Combat Pool loses ties. Very, very close mechanic that operates the same way, allowing the defender to totally avoid the attack.

3) Shooting has a "second stage" chance to decrease the attack via the damage resistance test. While this may seem like a doubled up area to resist, it sorta isnt. Combat pool is fairly limted in situations where people act a lot, thus having more chances to use it themselves and are exposed to more fire between pool refresh. The real catch on this step is that the targets get *armor*. To be synonymous with spellcasting, there would have to be a reduction of force by an armor value. However, the trade off to lacking this protection is that the caster gets hit by drain.

So...

In the end theyre pretty similar. They just look different at a glace. Magic has an advantage in that the caster can choose the damage level to fit the situation, and that its a bit more likley to work if it goes through. However, its also more risky, because even if the sam does something crazy like attack 4 people with full auto and totally misses, he doesnt actually hurt himself in the process like a mage could. Like a lot of things in SR its a tradeoff of power in one area for weakness in another. High initiative games, with higher willpower values, seriously compromise the strenght of magic to be unresistable.

[BenLarkin]

Thank you very much for that explination White, that really helps put things into perspective.

[Clank]

Leave it to White Dwarf to give the level-headed explaination. :)

So would this mean that I could create a spell to give my Willpower a buffer? Something like every 2 sux gives me 1 die to roll after my Resistance Test failed, but before I take damage to stage down the damage? Call it Second Mind, or something...

[Modesitt]

You could just cast Increase Willpower.

[Nephyte]

Ok, I've always played it that Combat Spells can be staged up. Thus casting a Manaball at Force 6 and doing a base damage of M, I could with 2 net successes against a target move to S, and 4 net successes move up to D.


However, perusing the rules lately, I haven't found any specific text that says that combat rules are staged up. Only the Base Damage reference someone above posted. Can anyone point me to a more direct statement that Combat spells have damage staging?

[Clank]

I don't have MitS handy, so I was hoping to get a Drain reduction, or something, or maybe the spell could add it's Force in dice, like Armor...


... but yeah, you're right, I could. :)

[The White Dwarf]

Yea it gets staged up. Rule is, if not totally resisted via the "magical dodge test using willpower dice" roll, it takes effect accoriding to its net success and the description of the spell that was cast. Edit- yay page reference below.

And Clank, theres a few spells to check. Spellshield and Increase (attribute) both help by changing the tn/dice values used in the roll. Also, just regular Spell Defense, or better yet Shielding, go a long way to soaking spells without fail. Best bet is still to just hurt the mage or make it hard for him to cast (ie, reduce his successes), so that your base willpower is enough dice. Stay in cover, damage him if you can, bring smoke screen, whatever. The goal is to make tagging you with magic tough enough that he has to use a big spell to do it, and thus force him to choose between drain, or not casting. Unlike a gunbunny, you can only reliably cast 1 spell per action. Sams can shoot with abandon multiple times per turn. Use that suppressive fire if nothing else. Magic is really more scarey on paper than during games, where the situational mods even it out.

[BenLarkin]

[Clank]

Alright, so for Claification:

Mage 1 casts Manaball 5 and goes for Moderate Damage.
. Applies penalty for being in low-lite conditions.
. Makes Test.
. Compares roll to Chummer 1's Will of 5.
. Compares roll to Chummer 2's Will of 4.
. Compares roll to Chummer 3's Will of 3.
Chummer 1 makes Willpower Test against 5.
. Saves.
. No Damage.
Chummer 2 makes Willpower Test against 5.
. Fails save by 1.
. Takes Moderate Damage.
Chummer 3 makes Willpower Test against 5.
. Fails save by 2
. Takes Serious Damage.
Mage 1 Drains against 2S
. Gets 3 successes.
. Takes Moderate Damage.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mage 1 casts Fireball 5 and goes for Serious Damage.
. Makes Test against TN 4.
. Gets 4 successes.
Chummer 1 uses Combat Pool for Dodge Test.
. Gets 5 successes. (ties go to attacker)
. No Damage.
Chummer 2 uses Combat Pool for Dodge Test.
. Gets 1 success.
. Applies 1/2 Impact AR to change damage to 3S.
. Makes Body Test.
. Gets 3 successes, plus the one from the dodge test.
. Takes Serious Damage. (no staging takes place)
Chummer 3 has no Combat Pool left.
. Applies 1/2 Impact AR to change damage to 3S.
. Makes Body Test.
. Gets 2 successes
. Takes Deadly Damage. (Mage 1 got 2 Net Successes; staged up 1 level)
. Falls to the floor.
. Has an M-80 stashed in his coat pocket (pretend it has an OR of 8).
. Mage rolls 2d6 vs. TN 10 (8+2 for Serious damage spell)
. Mage rolls 11.
. M-80 blows up.
. (chummers make rolls for damage and Chummer 3 takes over damage, but that's not important in this example)
Mage 1 Drains against 5D (drain takes Damage Code higher than D, so +2 is added to Power)
. Rolls 1 success.
. Takes Deadly Stun.
. Passes out.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Are these two scenes correct?

Edit- changed example to make sense.
Edit- staging occurs after Defender makes his/her Tests, so example was changed to make sense.

[Clank]

Now why can't you use Combat Pool to make a Dodge Test against the Combat Spells?

[Friggas Ring]

The don't get to dodge because the spell doesn't actually travel anywhere. Combat spells manifest on their target; elemental manipulation spells travel physically and astrally to the target who can then dodge out of the way and so forth.

[ShadowGhost]

Actually, chummer #1 needs 5 successes to dodge the fireball, not 4. Even when dodging EMs, you still need one more success than the attacker rolled to dodge completely.