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 Shadows of Europe, A question |
 Jun 22 2004, 02:38 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537  |
Nope. The most recent example would be Shadows of North America that was not translated (there were loads of complaints about that decision). |
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Jun 22 2004, 02:42 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
According to various polls held among gamers in Germany, the throne of RPGs is firmly in FanPro's hands: Das Schwarze Auge (FanPro's fantasy system) has been #1 for at least the last decade. The following places go (in variable order) to Shadowrun, World of Darkness and D&D. |
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Jun 22 2004, 02:50 PM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
Deutschland in den Schatten 2 is a compilation of three previously published German sourcebooks (that have all been long OOP), plus revisions, updates and some new stuff. Hence the size. I'm sure SoNA could have been of the same size or even bigger. I guess the decision was an economic one. Perhaps a book of that size (with according production costs) wouldn't sell well enough on the American market where SR's position is AFAIK weaker than in Germany. |
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Jun 22 2004, 03:30 PM
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#29
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 |
Well I guess I would say, and keep in mind I am not in any way officially connected to Fan Pro, that most American Players don't set their campaigns in Germany, so the cost would be prohibitive. I mean there are some die hards like me out there that have our Shadowrun phonecards, and Kage back copies but the average player? Would they be intrested in another Germany book? Thats assuming the German books would translate well into english, and that we'd find them as appealing as the German crowd does. (You ever hear of the dead pants? I sure as hell hadn't...) So until it becomes profitable for Fan Pro or whomever to do what you want-they won't. |
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Jun 22 2004, 04:23 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 265 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bangkok (sometimes Paris) Member No.: 332 |
There is also an important point that seems to be forgotten: Fanpro Germany and Fanpro US are 2 separate companies, with their own market and publishing policy.
Rob Boyle doesn't supervise everything that is done for the german market, though there is a tight collaboration. So, you can't be angry after Fanpro US because Fanpro D released a german only book. You may object that Fanpro US doesn't translate the book in english, but then lots of people already pointed out why it would be a stupid (commercially-wise) idea. |
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Jun 22 2004, 08:10 PM
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#31
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
The original Germany sb didn't sell that well in the first place (it's actually still available in many places) so its easy to see why FanPro US would be reluctant to put out a book twice that size on the same country 9 years on. In fact single country sourcebooks seem to have a poor sales record as compared to books like SoNA. Adding to this the fact that a lot of the material is German-centric and will never be used in most games and it's bad commercial sense to have the book translated from German to English, laid out again and printed (all of which costs significantly).
A DiDS2 (and an upcoming Target:AGS) mades all the sense for the German audience though since its their backyard getting coverage and many of them actually play Germany-based games. Furthermore, in Europe setting books appeal to more gamers than just GMs a common trend in the US. The France sourcebook was a similar but different issue. Not only did it pose the same problems as DiDS, but it also ran roughshod over canon and introduced a number of "setting breakers". |
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Jun 22 2004, 08:37 PM
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#32
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
I have it but never really got into it. There was just too much and too much a sense of holding something alien, like being invited to a party where you know no one and know one will talk to you.
Admittedly I have a slight bias against Germans but If I'm typical, it might explain why it didn't do well. |
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Jun 22 2004, 10:18 PM
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#33
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
Plus with the France sourcebook, whilst they got a franchise - not sure what the right legal term is - to use the Shadowrun world and do a book on the place, they didn't show it to any of the FASA/FanPro people before sending it off to the printers AFAIK. That along with breaking canon, having a serious case of 'Our country and stuff is so much cooler than everyone else's so nyah!' and generally being a bit on the crap side, it isn't canon and didn't get translated officially.
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Jun 22 2004, 11:48 PM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 109 Joined: 29-March 03 From: Tir Tarngiere Member No.: 4,353 |
Hmm... I haven't had the chance to pick up the Germany sourcebook, and I kind of liked "Ragnarock and Roll". So, is there even a teeny weeny chance that Shadows of Germany 2 will either come out a) in a translated print version. b) a translated print-on-demand version (ala RPGMall.com) or c) an E-book (either DRM enabled like DriveThruRPG.com or Non-DRM enabled like RPGNow.com)?
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Jun 23 2004, 12:48 AM
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#35
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,747 Joined: 11-December 02 From: France Member No.: 3,723 |
As far as I remember, France sb did not contradict canon as it stood at the time of its publishing (1997). There might be an issue with the novel Night's Pawn (1993) since France introduced a son of Richard Villiers, but I'd note that same novel was also contradicted in Blood in the Boardroom, Darren Villiers becoming Richard's brother instead of his nephew. Only after France publishing did American authors add elements to SR canon that contradicted that book they never saw. France is still munchkin, filled with bad idea and stupid plots, and deserves a hefty load of critics, but no bashing for its respect of canon.
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Jun 23 2004, 02:02 AM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 265 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bangkok (sometimes Paris) Member No.: 332 |
Talking about "my country is the best of the world" syndrome reminds me of the incredible dragon per square-meter ratio in Germany :)
If we limited ourselves about adding new dragons in SoE, it's mainly because Germany already had too much ;) BTW, I noticed the SoE wallpapers are no longer available on the official website. Anyone knows why they've been removed? Adam? |
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Jun 23 2004, 03:17 AM
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#37
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
Pfft. Details details. *Makes dismissive hand gestures* ;) |
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Jun 23 2004, 07:11 AM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 151 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Reutlingen.de Member No.: 677 |
Yeah, the authors of DidS1 (Gemany in the shadows) really went over the top regarding the presence of big scale lizards in the AGS, true. But, the authors of DidS2 noticed that, offing Nachtmeister was the first step of getting rid of those pesky wyrms on AGS territory, next were Kaltenstein and Schwartzkopf (though not offed, they're 'off the map' and pursue interests elsewhere, as indicated in DotsW). |
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Jun 23 2004, 11:44 AM
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#39
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,451 Joined: 21-April 03 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 4,488 |
Is Germany worse than the British Isles in that respect? They've got a few over there too...
The Abstruse One |
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Jun 23 2004, 01:42 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
After reading through the on-line Earthdawn dragon sourcebook, I came to the conclusion that there was probably two main councils of common (Western) dragons. Now the notable Barsaive dragons, Dunklezahn, Ghostwalker, Sirrurg, and (by some guesses) Masaru and Hestaby, seem to have relocated themselves from Eastern Europe to the Americas sometime between Earthdawn time and the end of the fourth world. ( when the dragons were all forced into hibernation ) The only clues why may be buried in those "Aina" novels. There was another western dragon council mentioned in Earthdawn times located around Vasgothia. The only known member of it was Lofwyr and at one time before he was kicked out Alamais. Vasgothia seems to be where Germany is in Europe. I suspect that this council stayed right where it was all the way until the end of the fourth world. That would explain why so many dragons woke up in or around Germany and why almost none of the German dragons can be traced back to the Barsaive dragon council in Earthdawn. They were part of the other council.
Celedyr is almost certainly a Barsaive dragon given his relationship to Earthroot ( I suspect he is Nightsky) but chose to instead go to the British isles possibly due to the incident involving the Great Tree and Earthroot. Rhonabwy is hinted to have a history with Lofwyr. I suspect that he may therefore also have relocated to the British Isles after a disagreement with the Vasgothia council. The British Isles may have been a popular spot for dragons that fell out of favor with their councils. Close enough to mainland Europe so they weren't completely separated yet far enough away to avoid the major conflicts and intrigue that seemed to plague Barsaive and the Theran empire. |
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Jun 23 2004, 02:13 PM
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#41
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
Few things of note here...
FanPro, and several other foreign companies, licensed the rights to both translate and sell Shadowrun product within their home countries, as well as produce new books. In Germany, Shadowrun was popular enough that FanPro (The "orginal FanPro", when itw as just a German RPG company) not only translated almost every book that came down the pipe, but also wrote... 4? 5? of their own books. There was a France, Japanese, and reportedly a Polan SB as well. The licensed original material wasn't/isn't considered canon material in any way, as FASA didn't ahve any hand in the creation or editing of the products. FASA decided to do a Germany Sourcebook after seeing an English summary of it, but made changes as they saw fit to adjust it to their needs, to fit it into the Canon gameworld. When FASA closed it's doors and WizKids bought Shadowrun, they wanted to keep the game line going. The people most familiar with Shadowrun and in the best position to publish SR material was FanPro, so they gave Fanpro the license to print Shadowrun material. Germany 2 was already in the works at that point, AFAIK, and had FASA still been around it likely wouldn't be canon still, though FanPro reportedly made a lot of efforts to keep Germany 2 close to the Canon SR world. of course, with Fanpro at the reigns now, it's no surprise that it is considered Canon, but it's very German centered, and has been mentioned, a lot would be lost on non-Germans, likely. Also, as has been noted, the original Germany book didn't sell all that well, and overall single-place/country SB's sell like drek. But SoNA and the Target books have shown that books with less single location focus can sell decently, so the info from Germany 2 was used as the basis for the info in SoE. Plus info and material from it is avilable to the Freelancers in case the data is relevant for other Sourcebooks... Bull |
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Jun 23 2004, 02:14 PM
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#42
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,747 Joined: 11-December 02 From: France Member No.: 3,723 |
Wales alone have all the three British Great Dragons: Rhonabwy, Celedyr and the Sea Dragon. Germany got five in the English version, Lofwyr, Kaltenstein, Nebelherr, Feuerschwinge and Nachtmeister, and six with Schwarzkopf in the original German version (even seven if you count Alamais in Germany in the Nachtmachen hideout in Night's Pawn, but you can't blame the German for that one). Now Nachtmeister's dead as well as more or less Feuerschwinge and Kaltenstein, Alamais moved to Norway, Schwarzkopf to Czechia and Nebelherr had been downgraded to adult status. |
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Jun 23 2004, 02:48 PM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 151 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Reutlingen.de Member No.: 677 |
err, Kaltenstein isn't dead! That, in fact was THE major change done by the FASA guys while translating DidS1. They offed Kaltenstein in a half sentence, but only did so in the english translation of the book. For german fans and german SR authors, Kaltenstein wasn't involved in any fight with Lofwyr and Nebelherr and thus didn't die. Hence the hint on what was going on between Lofwyr, Kaltenstein and Nebelherr in Dotsw to get things back on canonical tracks.
So according to Fanpro (global) canon, in 2063, Kaltenstein is very much alive and kicking ;-) IIRC, Nebelherr was an adult from the start, there wasn't any downgrading necessary. |
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Jun 23 2004, 02:49 PM
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#44
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,451 Joined: 21-April 03 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 4,488 |
What, did he de-age? Leonization for dragons...
The Abstruse One |
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Jun 23 2004, 03:15 PM
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#45
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,747 Joined: 11-December 02 From: France Member No.: 3,723 |
EDIT: Of course, rather than de-ageing, we could explain that just by the fact, the people on Shadowland really believed Nebelherr was a great dragon in 2054 and until , as DotSW put it, that if size might be usually the best indicator of a great dragon, it is not entirely reliable. |
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Jun 24 2004, 10:26 AM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 151 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Reutlingen.de Member No.: 677 |
Well, I should have known better than to start arguing with "Monsieur Encyclopedia" :-D |
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Jun 24 2004, 11:56 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 1-September 02 From: France Member No.: 3,208 |
Almost a month since SoE got to the printer... and still no entry in the Fanpro/FFE page.
Any update ? |
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Jun 25 2004, 07:45 AM
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#48
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Target Group: Members Posts: 94 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Loughborough, UK Member No.: 1,321 |
Having just read through this thread the only things that surprise me so far are the bits SoE isn't covering. I was kinda expecting (...and counting on...) it to deal with Greece and Western Russia. Oh well, can't have the moon on a stick- I'll just have to dump the crew in Eastern Poland instead... :vegm:
-JH. |
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Jun 25 2004, 08:17 AM
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#49
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
It was essentially a question of space, SoE covers 14 countries in 240 pages. To have done Russia and Greece in the detail they require would have meant at least another 50 pages, so it was decided to save them for later projects. Regarding dropping the team off in Poland... well, if you can hold on just a little longer I think everyone is in for a big surprise which will make it even more interesting. There are teasers in DotSW's Lofwyr and Calozerca btw. |
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Jun 25 2004, 08:41 AM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 265 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bangkok (sometimes Paris) Member No.: 332 |
err, last time I counted, that was 13 countries Peter ;) You work too much :) |
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