 Living in the Shadows: OOC, never relax... |
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 Nov 2 2004, 06:51 AM
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#226
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,289 Joined: 20-April 04 Member No.: 6,260  |
Sedna-
Echoing Bandit's questions, and adding another one. Where are you picturing our car as being? As far as a ruling, I agree with your spirit ruling. My interpretation of the Materialization power is when a spirit is specifically asked to do something that requires materialization but is not directly covered by any of the other powers (e.g. kicking down a door). And I will hold initiative roll until you make a ruling on the possible surprise situation. |
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Nov 2 2004, 04:13 PM
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#227
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,582 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,546 |
C'mon, guys, I'm giving you the break by letting you know that whatever else, those NPCs weren't expecting what happened :) In a tabletop campaign, those perception rolls would have been behind the GM screen. Your PCs can make an educated guess as to why, but they certainly couldn't know for sure, not without additional information you just don't have (yet?). (You do, however, have other information that could suggest a potentially useful link.)
Yes.
Yes.
When you wrote it up originally, WinterRat, you wrote it up suggesting the car wasn't on-site: you went to get the car, which strongly suggests it was not right outside the door. Opposite side of the street makes for a common drive-by surveillance of the meet place before committing, and easy advance observation of the car when returning to it. Underground garages make a classic trap unless you've got a decker backing you (and even then it's dicey): but there's none in this neighbourhood in any case. Therefore I'd assumed it was a block or so away, on the opposite side of the street or possibly one of the side streets, and considering the neighbourhood, it'd be safer on the street or in an above-ground garage than in an alley. That meant the one thing absolutely required was to cross the street: perhaps the only time you would be in the open. Hope that's fair by you? One thing you didn't ask and which I'd hoped would be self-evident was that of course Dragon's combat pool refreshed and is fully accessible. It was just the one thing I could pull from at that time to reflect that beautiful anti-surprise roll and save her life. Does this help? |
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Nov 2 2004, 04:17 PM
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#228
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,582 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,546 |
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Nov 3 2004, 01:33 PM
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#229
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,289 Joined: 20-April 04 Member No.: 6,260 |
Sedna-
I believe Bandit's initial question was simply to set up question 2, requesting the possibility of a surprise roll. Obviously we don't know for sure if they were surprised or why, it was simply a possible rationale from his/our point of view that would lead to a justifiable surprise roll. That said, here is said surprise roll: 23 08 08 05 05 04 04 02 01: At the standard surprise TN of 4: 7 successes Initiative Roll: 31 And yes, that sounds reasonable and fair to me about the car. Across the street and about a block away. Sounds like exactly what I would expect Dragon to do in the circumstances. It was also self-evident, given the new turn, that Dragon's combat pool is refreshed. By the way, as a matter of policy, I'm in agreement with Grendel's statement (between he and I in another game) of telling people their TN's and how many successes they need, particularly with dodge tests. As GMs, there's plenty of ways to screw/hammer players, they don't need to have to guess how many Combat Pool dice to allocate between dodging and soaking, and I have no problems with it. Your thoughts? And lastly, about how far are the mage and cyberguy from us? Rough positioning in meters? I have rangefinder and image link, so this should be automatically displayed for my reference. |
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Nov 3 2004, 04:39 PM
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#230
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 582 Joined: 30-July 04 Member No.: 6,525 |
Surprise roll: 05 05 04 01 At TN 5 (4 + wound modifier) gives 2 successes.
Initiative roll: 8 |
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Nov 3 2004, 07:25 PM
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#231
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,582 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,546 |
Whoops -- I'd meant that they'd have to make the surprise roll to keep from being surprised by your actions, and that both the PCs were in the clear now. I don't remember it being an opposed roll (request for reference)? Sorry for the delay: but that rule is going to affect whether/how many free initiative passes you have, so I'd like clarification before beginning this. Edit: book-challenged at the moment (real life's not being kind at all), but regardless I know under the revised SR3 initiative you'll have the first action, bandit: go ahead and write it up. The rule-detail will only apply insofar as to what extent they'll be able to react. WinterRat, you might as well go next: the only NPC really noticing what's happening your end won't be able to react that quickly anyway: although you will get pulled deeper into the earth before you can act, and you and Sybersnake will probably start to take damage from that in the next pass.
Dragon doesn't notice the mage yet, and it's difficult for Virgil to get an exact range on him since he's on the wrong side of the crowd: he does have line-of-sight though, at least for this initiative pass. Crowd's milling more than a bit into the street because this area of town doesn't have much in the way of sidewalks, and the entire restaurant patronage and staff spilled out at the same time. The cyberguy would be about 15 metres away: other side of the alley, mid-street, near side of the crowd. Of course, Dragon is being a bit distracted by the ground opening up right at his and Sybersnake's feet and starting to suck the two of you down: "the ground beneath Dragon's and Sybersnake's feet beginning to shudder apart and drag them into it ..."
I'm not quite sure what you're saying here, WinterRat. If you mean in standard combat that all combat-related rolls are open, will do. I usually only keep passive perception, opposed stealth tests and other detection/tactics/insight tests secret anyway. |
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Nov 3 2004, 09:39 PM
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#232
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,289 Joined: 20-April 04 Member No.: 6,260 |
OK I'm in need of clarification on this on a couple of points. 1. How on earth is Bandit going before me? I have a WAY higher initiative roll than him. What is the rationale behind this ruling? Is there a hidden roll I'm missing? You said under revised SR 3 initiative...he declares first, but as far as actual actions, faster characters still go first, it's just we go from top to bottom with everyone getting one turn before subtracting 10 from everyone's roll. A bit confused here. 2. Surprise is as following. Everyone rolls reaction against TN 4, modifiers if waiting in ambush, but obviously they were in no position to do so thanks to the spirit's concealment power. People can only act against people that they have an equal or greater number of successes on their surprise roll, and cannot act against those who have more successes than them. In this situation, for example, that means I can act against anyone who scored 7 or less successes on their surprise roll, and someone has to have scored AT LEAST 7 successes to act against me, and I cannot act against anyone who has more than 7 successes. This lasts for either this pass or this turn, cannot remember which, but I am sure of this mechanic. Ugh, exact reference is in the combat section, near the beginning, of SR 3. Pg. in the below 150 range, I believe. Close enough that you should be able to find it reasonably quick. 3. Can I just run out of this area that's pulling myself and Sybersnake down, or is a roll necessary? Since we haven't taken damage yet, I'm assuming that the elemental (most probable entity) is about to use engulf on us but has not yet, so we can just exit stage left and avoid it. I should add, how is it possible that I'm pulled into the ground before I can react? There are three possibilities I can think of. a. It already engulfed me. In this case, I should've been able to roll to resist or escape, and would be taking damage this round upon failure. b. It is manifested last turn and is about to engulf me. However, it cannot possibly have rolled higher than me on its initiative roll, which would be Force + 10 (physically manifested to use engulf) + 1D6 + elemental type (assuming earth) modifier. It's not possible for it to beat me unless this thing is like a force 20 or so elemental...in which case we may as well just start making new charaters. :dead: c. You gave it the +20 for acting astrally (which would be somewhat reasonable, since it may be in astral space about to pounce on me) and it still would need to be at least a force 6 with a roll of 6 on the 1D6 to beat me. This is more possible, I just wanted to make sure, because I believe an elemental has to manifest to use engulf (thus giving it the +10 bonus?), although as I also lack the book as I write this, I could be mistaken. If so, what would I need to roll to escape said engulfing, and can I still attack while running away from it. That said, this leads me to believe this could possibly be a misinterpretation of SR3's initiative system, in which you are having characters ACT slowest to fastest, when they should be DECLARING slowest to fastest and ACTING fastest to slowest. If you could clarify these points, that would help tremendously. And yes, I was simply saying combat related rolls are open, with the exceptions you noted and a few others that may occur. Whew. Sorry about this, don't mean to be contradictory, but at least for points 1 and 2 I'm 95-99% sure I'm right, and in need of clarification as to the necessary rolls for point 3. Thanks! |
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Nov 3 2004, 09:47 PM
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#233
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,289 Joined: 20-April 04 Member No.: 6,260 |
Karma Note
Thus far, I have been a bit lenient in granting karma. I was reviewing the karma records, and I realized I've granted some players karma for not posting at all, or perhaps one post in the week. I'm not going to go back and penalize players for not posting, because I realize some of those weeks were slow or people were waiting on others, perhaps even me. This is just a notification to everyone, my players and Sedna's, that it IS possible to earn zero karma for no posts. Just an announcement that I will be paying a bit more attention in the future and will be especially strict in the next few weeks just to 'make up' for my leniency. All things considered though, everyone's doing a great job and I wouldn't expect anyone to have a problem with this. I'm mostly just saying that I won't be giving 1 pt of karma for existing anymore, as I realized I've mistakenly done a couple times in my last few karma awards. You'll have to earn it again. ;) |
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Nov 3 2004, 09:58 PM
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#234
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 582 Joined: 30-July 04 Member No.: 6,525 |
I'd already posted the last IC post by the time that winterrat responded in the OOC thread. I figured I should still post the rolls to go along with the spell because regardless of how the situation is resolved this would still be Virgil's first action. . .
powerbolt force 6 - damage level (D): 6 sorcery dice + 2 totem dice + 2 spell pool dice 09 05 05 05 05 04 04 03 02 01 * remember that I have a +1 owing to my light stun when you figure TN drain 4D stun: 6 willpower dice + 4 spell pool dice 10 05 05 05 05 04 02 01 01 01 final TN of 5 which makes for 5 successes. Virgil takes an M stun adding to his already L stun. Wow those wound modifiers makes things go downhill very quickly. |
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Nov 3 2004, 10:22 PM
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#235
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,289 Joined: 20-April 04 Member No.: 6,260 |
Bandit,
Wound modifiers do NOT apply to resistance rolls for drain and damage resistance, IIRC. Therefore you would have 6 successes which would take you down to L. Check that one, but I'm reasonably sure that's correct. Damage resistance rolls are 'reflexive', and injury modifiers apply only to actions. Check me on this, but I think it's worth checking out. |
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Nov 3 2004, 11:08 PM
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#236
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,289 Joined: 20-April 04 Member No.: 6,260 |
Karma Spending
You may spend karma in game. I do not use training times, because that would take you out of the game for...well...pretty much forever. The proceedure is as follows. 1. Notify your World GM of your request to spend karma via PM. Tell them WHAT you are raising, its ORIGINAL level, its NEW level, and the COST. 2. They will either approve it (usually quick for attributes below racial maximum and skills) or specify what is necessary for you to do to complete the purchase (for example, initiation with an ordeal is more than just spending a reduced karma rate. :D ) 3. Do what you have to do for approval to be granted, and spend away. Questions should be directed to your World GM or me. Kurukami- Please send me the aforementioned information as to what you're raising, what you're raising it from, and to, as well as the cost. Shev- Same procedure. Note that this procedure does not apply for karma-for-cash or vice versa. You tell your World GM you would like to invoke one of those rules, and they'll tell you how much cash you get or how much cash the karma point costs. Note if you don't have enough to pay for that (e.g. It will cost you 10K for a karma point but you have 8) you will be considered 'in debt' to someone for that amount. It most likely will be a 'friendly' debt but you never know...point being, make sure you have the maximum amount (2D6*1000=12000) before asking. Don't bank on a low roll. Oh and I have records of EVERYONE'S karma to date. In the event of a discrepancy between me and you, the burden of proof is on you to provide the dates/posts detailing your karma awards. Just something to make my life and record keeping a little easier. :D God knows it's already insane as is... |
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Nov 4 2004, 04:43 PM
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#237
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,582 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,546 |
FIRST: original rationale behind the initiative ruling. Remember, all this is IIRC (although at least I just finished reading the surprise rules). The major initiative revision for SR3, as I had thought I remembered my tabletop group read it at the time, was that it ran by the last digit for the first pass, take away 10, repeat as necessary. (I think now I slipped up in the way I remembered that.) The specific intent of change, as we read it, specifically altered initiative so as to allow everyone an action in the first pass, rather than the SR2 system which allowed several "higher" passes before the more basic initiative people ever got an action ... by which time, sometimes, the combat was over. Of course, now that I'm thinking about it, I can see how I might have remembered that wrong, and I'm amending per yours, WinterRat:
So there was method behind my madness, but it just happened to be the wrong method. At least, fortunately, it still won't make a difference here. SECOND: Thanks to bandit and WinterRat for getting those rules to me. I now guarantee you both the free initiative pass, although ongoing things will still be ongoing. Give me a sec, I'll get you the exact numbers in the next post after I get all the first concerns worked out :wobble: THIRD: concealment. This particular one I feel pretty confident on, since a year ago I argued the concealment power up and down Dumpshock as a major shamanic benefit over mages. But I'll note that not all surprise is due to not having noticed something. FOURTH:
I was hoping someone would identify that! :) That was another roll I took advantage of that awesome surprise roll of Dragon's to keep it from fully succeeding instantly on its held action (answering points a and b, and you forgot point d! a spirit can hold an action too), but it's definitely engaged: consider it more or less equivalent to a grapple. That should also partly answer the next question:
I use "soft" interpretations which sometimes allow for alternatives to the all or nothing scenario. In this particular case, engulf didn't work in the surprise situation -- barely -- but contact was made and retained (I'm calling it the equivalent of a grapple), and engulf will be attempted again, possibly at a -1 to TN. Dragon can probably pull himself out of it fairly easily, and he'll recognise that almost at once: technically it would be a roll but I'm not really concerned about it: if he wants to free himself, he'll be free. What's making it difficult is that it's not primarily Dragon it's engaged with. Here's the numbers:
FIFTH:
Because the book's not specific, there's an ongoing argument going on in the main Dumpshock forum about that wrt drain. The major point in favour of wound modifiers not applying to drain is that they don't apply to damage resistance, and drain should be just another form of that. The major point against is that drain and damage resistance aren't parallel. Me, I'd be in the camp of applying wound modifiers to everything; but since that's not canon, I'd argue in favour of applying wound modifiers to drain (it's just that much more difficult to successfully channel the energy without taking harm from it). But I'm willing to be overruled. LAST:
Would it be fair for all of us to assume that no GM involved here is ever going to create an unbeatable scenario? :please: I mean, what would be the point? :) BUT that's not to say that I'm not going to challenge PCs to within an inch of what I know to be their abilities, and then some! But, just as a general note, I never create a scenario that I don't think I, as the PC, couldn't find some way to beat. It's not about GM vs. players, ever. It's about having a great game all around! :) I apologise to everyone involved for yesterday's screw-ups. Again, it's not been a good couple of weeks. And now to the pure mechanics of what's going on. |
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Nov 4 2004, 05:21 PM
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#238
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,582 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,546 |
Game mechanics, let's see ... all right, what I'll do for sheer quickness sake, this one time, is to review what's been posted and to do a bit of quick summary. That means I'll be getting to the net results just a bit quicker, mostly because of the surprise situation. I'll slow down in true interactive combat.
Dragon 23 08 08 05 05 04 04 02 01: At the standard surprise TN of 4: 7 successes Initiative Roll: 31 Virgil Surprise roll: 05 05 04 01 At TN 5 (4 + wound modifier) gives 2 successes. Initiative roll: 8 powerbolt force 6 - damage level (D): 6 sorcery dice + 2 totem dice + 2 spell pool dice 09 05 05 05 05 04 04 03 02 01 * remember that I have a +1 owing to my light stun when you figure TN drain 4D stun: 6 willpower dice + 4 spell pool dice 10 05 05 05 05 04 02 01 01 01 final TN of 5 which makes for 5 successes. Virgil takes an M stun adding to his already L stun. [/end summary] Dragon has two net surprise successes on the cyberguy, but doesn't see the mage yet. Virgil has one net surprise success on the mage, and is using it to cast Powerbolt (D), (edited to correct) TN BD [R] = 4 [5 with the stun]. The mage can only use WL + pre-allocated Spell Defense dice to resist: 6, 6, 4, 4, 4, 4, 2, 1, for two successes. Three net successes to Virgil (corrected again, again. All evidence to the contrary, I usually can add.) The elemental is not surprised, but continues to try to do what it's been trying to do all along: Engulf. However, its initiative is 21: and Dragon goes first. Tiffany goes next after Dragon, and Sybersnake comes last of all. Again, here's those numbers:
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Nov 4 2004, 05:44 PM
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#239
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,582 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,546 |
Edited everything to fix. Everything should be final now. Thanks for catching that, bandit.
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Nov 4 2004, 05:48 PM
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#240
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 582 Joined: 30-July 04 Member No.: 6,525 |
Hey no problem. This is a group effort afterall. Should I expect you to make an IC post after these past actions? Or just hang back for a while and let winterrat get Dragon's actions sorted out?
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Nov 5 2004, 01:03 PM
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#241
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,289 Joined: 20-April 04 Member No.: 6,260 |
Dragon will try to help Sybersnake out, at the expense of being engulfed.
Willpower roll (with -1 to TN): 14 05 04 01 Will he still have a simple action to fire at the samurai afterwards, or is yanking her out a complex action? |
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Nov 5 2004, 03:26 PM
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#242
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,582 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,546 |
Opposed roll: 8, 7, 5, 3, 3, 2 , for three successes.
Dragon would need just one more success to tie (and thus succeed in getting her out). With two, I'd give him the single shot as well before he gets Engulfed. (No further time to post today, sorry.) |
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Nov 6 2004, 09:51 AM
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#243
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,289 Joined: 20-April 04 Member No.: 6,260 |
OK Karma pool re-roll: 05 02
So that's three successes, and Dragon gets Sybernsnake out, but not in time to shoot the goon. Except due to surprise, he can't shoot at me this pass anyway, right? |
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Nov 6 2004, 04:47 PM
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#244
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,582 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,546 |
Right :) Or next pass (two net successes). Same deal: if Dragon gets himself out of it with one success over (without the -1 TN bonus this time though), he'll have the single shot on top of that.
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Nov 7 2004, 02:12 AM
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#245
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 167 Joined: 11-August 04 Member No.: 6,556 |
Sorry, Sedna. I went back and edited my last two posts to make them flow better.
Let me know what you think. |
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Nov 7 2004, 08:04 AM
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#246
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,289 Joined: 20-April 04 Member No.: 6,260 |
OK, to get out of Engulf, it's Strength vs. Force opposed roll, so Dragon's roll is
Strength (TN 6): 11 07 02 02 01 04 for two successes. And just to make it quicker, my Strength is 6, so the elemental's Force (not strength) test TN is 6 as well. How often does karma pool refresh, anyway? And if I fail, resisting 6S, less 4 pts of Impact armor.... Body (TN 2): 10 04 04 05 03 03 01 for 6 successes and no damage. |
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Nov 7 2004, 05:16 PM
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#247
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,582 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,546 |
Sentinel:
Whatever happened to "it has potential"? ;) But I've noted the questions/points you raised in context and tried to respond to them. Note that while lifestyle cost includes the rent (and they'll want first and last month), the service fees, however, are over and above (extra), as well as any construction fees you might incur. If you want to deal in detail with this, I'll respond in kind; if not, we can skip over a lot of this and consider what's been said to have been said. Just always remember that in the Shadowrun world, some things are at their face value, and some ... aren't. WinterRat: Its roll: 9, 8, 5, 4, 3, 1, giving it two successes. I'm interpreting the tie in your favour, obviously you've taken no damage! but you're only just getting clear and you don't get the shot. On its initiative (directly after Dragon's) it hesitates, begins to go after Tiffany and Sybersnake ... and then plunges into the earth and vanishes from Virgil's astral sight. That actually takes us to the end of the first pass, since Virgil has already acted, Sybersnake really can't, not at the moment, and the crowd hasn't really been able to yet. Order of actions for the next pass:
Virgil, Tiffany, Sybersnake, and the crowd don't get an action this time around. Karma pool refreshing is a bit debatable since the book deliberately left it "soft", but in general I'd understood it to refresh at each major change of plot environment; what White Wolf would call "scene". In this case, it won't refresh until after you get clear of the combat environment. Bandit: When we get through this initiative round you can roll your spirit's initiative for the next round: it just won't be able to take any new actions until Virgil tells it what to do on his initiative. |
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Nov 8 2004, 08:31 AM
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#248
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,289 Joined: 20-April 04 Member No.: 6,260 |
Sunday Karma
Shev- 2 Paul- 2 Sedna- 1 |
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Nov 8 2004, 09:38 AM
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#249
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,944 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
ok
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Nov 8 2004, 11:47 AM
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#250
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,289 Joined: 20-April 04 Member No.: 6,260 |
Tisoz, the LITS: OOC thread has been well developed to this point and is exclusively for handling immediate OOC matters for the IC thread now. Please keep all GM related ruling discussions in the emails we have going for now.
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