 The Day job Flaw, Or is it.... |
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 Jun 26 2004, 02:55 PM
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#26
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Free Spirit  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920  |
Acquiring the resources to get the treatment to get rid of the flaw. How is that cheating? Look at what they could have spent the money on instead. That is called working off a flaw. If you look at how 5K nuyen can buy a point of karma (back of MitS), they probably overpaid to remove the flaw. At 5xflaw points, a 6 point flaw takes 30 karma. At 5K/karma, it costs 150K nuyen. What does the treatment cost? Price it at a minimum of 150K nuyen. The payphone thing is probably a quick example, but that flaw is for dealing with unfamiliar telecoms. How different can payphones be? They have changed little in decades. The only innovation/difference I have seen is the addition of a credit card slot, or ones that don't accept coins at all. And they are usually right next to normal phones. But kick them as much as you like, they should have known better to take any flaw at all with a GM that hates flaws. |
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Jun 26 2004, 04:32 PM
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#27
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
This is an incorrect use of the flaw. It's just Bad Rep. Not Bad Rep: Horrible Decker. If you're a horrible decker, deckers don't like you for that. You also probably defaulted on some loans or didn't pay your rent 'cause you're a horrible decker and weren't making any money. People don't like you for that. Maybe you were too close to a big bar brawl and now you have an (undeserved) rep for busting things up. People don't like you for that. There is no such thing as Bad Rep: Horrible Decker. No more than there is Night Blindness: In One Eye. Edit: and it's 10 karma per point of flaw, so you're vastly underpricing it, Tisoz. ~J |
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Jun 26 2004, 04:51 PM
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#28
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
That makes absolutely less sense than just "Bad Rep." If I take this flaw, I have a bad reputation with everyone, everywhere? No matter where I go, someone is going to have heard of me and think badly of me - not specific badness, but just "Oh, I've heard about you - you're bad?" From the lowest SINless squatter starving in an alley to the highest CEO - hell, Dunk knew my rep and thought badly of me? Geeze, just think what good rep could do. -Siege |
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Jun 26 2004, 04:55 PM
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#29
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
So, you're ok with the idea of a character taking "blind" as a flaw, then buying cybereyes and eliminating the flaw completely? -Siege |
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Jun 26 2004, 05:03 PM
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#30
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
First off, this is just "Bad Rep". It can't make less sense than itself. Sure, why not? That's what the description says. The whole point of good/bad rep is that you actually have a rep. People know you. I'd be inclined to tone it down a bit so that you aren't universally known, certainly, but the edge or flaw should mean that a lot more of the people you're going to work with should have heard of you. ~J |
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Jun 26 2004, 05:16 PM
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#31
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Sorry, I referring to your interpretation. You admit that you would "tone down" the reputation so you aren't "universally known." You're putting limitations on the Flaw that aren't in Canon - to make the Flaw more functional in your game. Essentially, I'm doing the same thing - I'm specifying what kind of "bad rep" a character has and limiting the reputation to people who might reasonably know about that rep. The stuffer shack cashier isn't (likely) to know about the character being a "horrible decker", although other deckers would and probably interested shadowrunners might be in the know. Although in retrospect, I can see your point about the general "good" and "bad" reps - rumor tends not to be specific. Although the people "in the know" should be reasonably limited, as you pointed out. Sorry, carry on with your normally scheduled debating. :grinbig: -Siege |
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Jun 26 2004, 06:27 PM
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#32
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Terrible example, since it is expressly forbidden. IMO, edges can get taken away during gameplay and flaws can be assigned by the GM. The Character doesn't get a karma adjustment or anything, it happened because of roleplaying. The rules explain flaws can be bought off, and I will concede I was wrong about the cost. I didn't look it up then and I'm not looking it up now. I also didn't look up the cost of the treatment or how many points the flaw was. The point was flaws can be bought off, sometimes with karma and sometimes through roleplaying. Getting treatment sounds like a combination of the two to some extent and the player shouldn't get penalized for it. Just let him pay a fair amount. As much trouble as some people make of flaws, I wish they would just not allow them in their game. It doesn't impress me when I hear a GM acting like a sadist enforcing flaws. Not using the flaws but expanding what they cover, making stuff up that they should include, etcetera. If you look at an edge/flaw combo like aptitude/incompetance, notice that the edge costs twice as many points as the flaw gives. IMO, that is something of a penalty right off the bat. Have the flaws arise at inopportune times. Good players will bring them into play themselves. It makes things interesting. When I am approving characters, I ask players how they see the flaw coming into play where it will actually have an effect. If they can't make it a hindrance worthy of some points then we change how it will work, adjust the points, or discard the flaw. Make it simple on yourself. And yes, this day job flaw is one I always ask about. They know how it is going to effect their character, how often, what will happen if they job hop, and so on. |
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Jun 26 2004, 06:40 PM
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#33
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I think you get what I'm saying; I'm just pointing out that the Stuffer Shack clerk, if he knew the character (lots of reasons why he might be able to recognize him: regular customer, friend knows him, etc) wouldn't react negatively towards the character because he's a lousy decker, but because he's a shoplifter (he might not really be) or because he busted that one shop up over in Bellevue (maybe he didn't) or whatever. Bad Reputations do not spawn from a single failing (unless it's Bad Rep for liking little kids more than is wholesome or some generally disapproved-of quality). ~J |
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Jun 26 2004, 06:46 PM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 376 Joined: 14-July 03 Member No.: 4,928 |
You're also forgetting one other negative for Day Job Flaw - it cuts your available training time, making it harder and taking longer to improve skills and attributes.
Sleep - 7 hours per day. Day Job (full) - 9-10 hours per day (work, unpaid lunch break, travel etc). Eating, shaving, showering, shopping etc, legwork, tracking stuff down (i.e. high availability items). - 3 hours per day. Leaving at most, just 5 hours per day to train, B/R, etc.... *if* you're not interrupted, on a run, meeting your partners, or Mr. J, etc. I agree that flaws are not punishments, but neither are they "free" build points. Flaws should be just as integral to the character as edges are, and the more a character plays to the flaw, the less the Gm should feel the need to "enforce" said flaw, if at all (bring it up all the time). One of my players has Computer Illiterate flaw... and it's a great source of comic relief, and he plays it well. I never have to think "Oh wait, he's completely ignored that flaw so I need to smack him with it." On the other hand, we've never had a campaign at sea, and I had to force one player to drop or exchange his "Sea Madness" flaw - that was just plain munchkiny and looking for free build points by taking a flaw that his character will never use. |
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Jun 26 2004, 11:37 PM
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#35
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
I would say that it is a good call if it was done before the campaign started, but it would smack of GM railroading/fiat if it was done after chargen (IMO, it is then a case of GM incompetence). |
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Jun 26 2004, 11:55 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 376 Joined: 14-July 03 Member No.: 4,928 |
It was done at character creation, before the campaign started. Once I check out the flaws, I talked to him about changing them. He also 6 edges and 7 flaws, something else I asked him to correct (max of 5 edges and 5 flaws). I have had to ask players to change things after a campaign was started, due to things I (or the player) didn't catch. One was a rating 5 chipjack expert driver. I found out later the max rating is 3. So I asked the play to droper the rating to 3, and use the cash spent on the difference between rating 3 and 5 to purchase something else, with the same limitations as a starting character, using book value (no street index). He also had alternative to keep the karma earned and rework the character using the same stats, resources etc. As a gm, I think my job is to A: have a fun game for the players, make it interesting and challenging. Screwing players over, by either railroading them, or some out-of-the-blue huge doublecross just kills any fun they players might have had, and leaves them feeling like they've just wasted hours or days of game time for nothing. |
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Jun 27 2004, 12:58 AM
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#37
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,451 Joined: 21-April 03 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 4,488 |
I'm not saying abuse the flaws, I'm just saying enforce them. They're NOT free points. It's a flaw in the character that they get to compensate for with extra points. If I make the Cat Shaman roll his Willpower to cast a high-level attack spell the first round of combat, why shouldn't I also make him toll to try to figure out the computer system on the payphone (check out the novels, esp. Findley's novels. Payphones are not insert-coins-then-dial-number, they're computers with webcams, on-screen guides, and basically toned-down telecoms). He gets the advantages of getting more dice for specific spells and spirits, therefore he gets the bad side as well. He gets to use that Conjuring 6 or Etiquette 6 he got thanks to the build points, he has to puzzle over the use of a coffin motel's automated payment system.
The Abstruse One |
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Jun 27 2004, 01:20 AM
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#38
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
No, they are not free. But if there is an in-game reason for the PC to get rid of the Flaw or get around it, I see no reason for the GM to enforce his Flaw when there is a perfectly reasonable way for him to avoid his Flaw. |
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Jun 27 2004, 01:28 AM
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#39
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Eh - different attitudes, I suppose.
I know too many cheese monkies that would take a flaw knowing they could remove it later with minimum fuss in order to qualify for more Virtue points. It's one of the reasons why I don't game anymore. -Siege |
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Jun 27 2004, 02:10 AM
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#40
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Or just take the book recommendation that the elimination of a flaw, which this is, will replace it with another falw of an equal point value of the GM's choosing. Flaws by the book can only be eliminated by paying 10x their value on good karma.
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Jun 27 2004, 02:12 AM
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#41
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Or by using Gene Therapy(SOTA 2063).
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Jun 27 2004, 02:13 AM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 973 Joined: 3-October 03 Member No.: 5,677 |
:rotfl: |
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Jun 27 2004, 12:18 PM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 556 Joined: 28-May 04 From: Moorhead, MN, USA Member No.: 6,367 |
Not to stir the pot too much, but I think I would let a character get rid of his blindness flaw . . . if he was willing to spend hundreds of thousands of :nuyen: and risk brain damage as the doctors operate extensively on his visual cortex.
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Jun 28 2004, 05:25 AM
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#44
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
And this whole discussion is why I flat-out ban the Day Job flaw in my games. The players all know it beforehand, so there's no issues with having to railroad them later.
I agree with Toturi that GM's shouldn't be smacking a player with his flaws right and left; they're best saved for special occasions. If a player has Phobia: Insect Spirits, having them pop up left and right gets annoying. (Assuming, of course, that you're not running a Chicago game. If the player knew that beforehand, he deserves bonus points.) What works best is saving the insect spirits for the big bad guys; when you finally meet the guy who you've been hunting for half the campaign, and he turns out to be a Flesh Form, it really can heighten a game. |
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Jun 28 2004, 01:48 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 693 Joined: 26-March 03 Member No.: 4,335 |
On the whole Gene Therapy thing... Maybe I'm a mean GM, but if one of my players took the 'borrowed time' flaw and tried to get around it by therapy (without paying the huge load of karma for it), I'd still leave them with the Borrowed time flaw. When the time is up: "Mind that bus!" "What bus?" SPLAT! After all, the whole _point_ of the flaw is to play a character with no future. Makes it edgy. If you plan on living more than 3d6 months, don't take the flaw. |
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Jun 28 2004, 01:55 PM
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#46
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Perhaps they can change it into a Karmic Flaw instead of a Physical one. But as it stands, by Canon, Gene Therapy works. |
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Jun 28 2004, 02:09 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 577 Joined: 12-June 04 Member No.: 6,398 |
Assuming the Borrowed Time is a physical malady to begin with. While its listed as a physical flaw, the description includes references to Cranial Bombs or anything else you can think of.
It also depends on whether or not you want to use SOTA's "remove any physical flaw" rule (which the rules never say, mind you, only "correct physical flaws" which is wholly different) or Borrowed Time's "nothing can save him" rule. Conflicting rules usually dictate that you use the one that's a specific exception to the main rule, which in this case would be Borrowed Time's "nothing can save him" as opposed to "correct physical flaw" since no other physical flaw has such a stipulation -- the closest being Blind, but that only restricts cybereyes from correcting the problem. The flaw then goes on to list the one and only possible hope for removing the flaw (which, itself, is a specific rule-breaker for flaws in general) in that they have to exchange it for other flaws, but only if the GM allows them to after the game has begun. So no, by "canon" Gene Therapy doesn't work. It could be used to explain why the flaw turned into another set of flaws, but it doesn't eliminate it right out. |
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Jun 28 2004, 02:59 PM
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#48
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,451 Joined: 21-April 03 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 4,488 |
At least the players get a warning beforehand...oh blah, I was trying to continue the Red Dwarf reference and failed miserably. Anyway, using gene therapy to correct borrowed time is being a munchkin, which gets you hit by cows. The Abstruse One |
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Jun 28 2004, 03:21 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 3-April 03 Member No.: 4,370 |
and remember, the implementation of flaws doesn't always have to be serious. i remember my friend's and my old characters... mine had a phobia of monster trucks and his had a phobia of clowns. our gm sent us into the barrens to investigate something and we got attacked by clown suit wearing, monster truck driving, acid-filled supersoaker wielding gangers. it was freakin hilarious! i can still imagine the looks on our characters faces as those trucks rolled down the street with 6 clowns hanging out the back hell-bent on our death. :(
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Jun 28 2004, 03:28 PM
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#50
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Target Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 4-June 04 From: UP of Michigan - Laurium/Houghton Member No.: 6,377 |
I enjoyed the day job flaw with one character. The flaw, or the job behind the flaw was a major defining point of the character.
The character went by the street name of Bass, not all that original when his "day" job was playing the string bass. He was an aspiring concert bassist sitting in a real orchestra. A large portion of my 'day' job was practicing, which was very flexible, but rehearsal and concert schedules were absolutely inflexible, and almost always ran into weekend evenings. In the middle of one run, I had to leave the rest of my team and walk my way out of the barrens to get to my car and a dress rehearsal on time. The character was my first ShadowRun character and was a blast. He was a troll, that goblinized late puberty. Before goblinization, he was dedicated to the music, but lacked the real talent necessary to excel in the professional world. After goblinization - to a troll no less, the likelihood of being an orchestral musician was even less likely. This motivated the character to seek a drastic alternative, the military. Many years, and a few augmentations later, he was again a civilian, with the time, and now improved abilities to pursue his dream. It is fun to picture a Troll in a tux with a string bass case, that instead of packing heavy military heat, really sports an honest to goodness string bass. The flaw was a flaw though, it cut into my time as a runner, as a developing character, and the runs cut into my career. Our gamemaster tied a couple of our runs into my job - we did a run against one of the orchestra's major sponsors who ended up pulling funding from the group as a result... pinch time in the orchestra. Other times it seemed all the meets would be set for only minutes after rehearsals forcing me to leave the rehearsal hall with the barest of civility, and sometimes even slighting my fellow players or maestro... bad news for the aspiring professional. I think the day job is a flaw as long as both the player and story teller are on the same page regarding the job. It can't be paper thin, or then it is just a few points at character development. Instead it can be a very defining point for the character. Then again my job was a career type job instead of the stuffer shack... so I do acknowledge every case is unique. --Uba Dave |
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