Ethics, Anyone ever see a character with them? Options

[Plastic Rat]

Coming from a (years ago) Cyberpunk 2020 background, I always felt that canon Shadowrun was designed to make the characters heroes. Or at least better people than the street-scum that they deal with. Most of the characters in the novels seem to be relatively...good guys.

I've been playing a character with the "Pacifist -1" flaw. Basically means he uses gell rounds whenever possible, will even stabilise the odd bad-guy if possible, and won't kill in cold blood. Also won't harm innocents and will stay away from outright crimes like kidnapping, extortion (ok, there has been an exception to that one, but they bloody deserved it damnit :| ) and other 'darker' practices.

Basically cause I got sick of the "I'm-an-orphan-got screwed-over-by-everyone-Samurai, and I can do what I want cause I was a nice guy, but I have to survive, and everyone was bad to me so now I don't care anymore and am a bloodthirsty slot who will sell his team-mates for cash"

Got bored with the stereotype and wanted something fresh. It just seems that EVERYONE's game mentioned contains runners who will murder, rape, extort, deal in BTL/drugs and use Micros0ft products on a regular basis.

So what's the deal, anyone else play "ethical" groups or characters? Do people feel the game was intended to be played as bloodthirsty mercenaries? Whatever "type" of character you play, WHY do you play them?

[Cray74]

Lately, my PCs, and those of my group, seem to:

*Try not to kill cops, for professional reasons (as in, your shadowrunning profession ends when you kill a cop)

*Try not to kill bystanders, for moral & professional reasons. Then again, this rarely comes up - I don't recall any recent runs that involved fighting security in public. There were some self-defense actions in public - two of the current PCs have high-value "hunted" flaws - but the only injured bystanders were injured by the hunters.

*Try minimize bloodshed in general - generally, only the people shooting (or thinking of shooting) at us die. Again, for moral & professional reasons. Then again, there have been moments where expedience dictated less discriminate HMG hosing.

*Try to minimize random violence when off-duty, though there's an exception in the group (the PC who randomly kills civilians - like waiters - who annoy him by not knowing the answers to his questions).

[Siege]

[Cray74]

[Wounded Ronin]

I see "ethical" characters all the time. I think most people find it too easy to go with the totally amoral route so they eventually want a challenge.

[Cirenya]

Lately I'm playing a relativ moral-concerned character, unfortunatly the rest of the team is the most reckless and bloodthirsty until now in the campaign.
My character (a magicians way adept/ dragonslayer shaman), would never harm and innocent and recently the definition is getting broader as the teammates are getting even more violent. But there is some few problems
1. Her weapons are a savalette guardian ( to which she hasn't succeded finding gelrounds), a monowhip (not particular good for avoiding killing) and a regular whip, which she mostly use for entangling opponents (as 2L stun against doupple impact doesn't matter much)
2. She really hates the various criminal organizations, and my GM really likes to make all our clashes with the yakuza, to meetings with 15-years old boys with fullautomatic weapons. Where the dilemma comes to kill them or not, sinces she hates their organization, she don't want to kill children, and still they posses a threat...
3. and lately, if she finally succiding in incapacitating an opponent without killing him, her teammembers is beginning to finsh them of, for her, as they know she won't do it.

Btw right now she have to live with a feeling of being guilty, as she executed a yakuzaboy, after the rest of the team has tortured him. (She could't stop them, and killed out of mercy, after he refused her offer for freedom) but anyway, she regret her action.

My former character was a young female elven combatmage, who tossed manaballs left and right. She is soon coming back, but more reclutant to killing, as her twinbrother was killed on a run and she had learned a bit about mortallity.

Anyway I never play icycold killermachines, as I see it very unrealistic and thinks it makes the character 2-dimensional, but that's just my opinion

[Nikoli]

[ Spoiler ]

I remember playing my first ex wage-slave decker, my GM decided the encephalon allowed for minor "multi-tasking", so I opted for a mono-whip in a fingertip compartment. Someoen walked up while I was decking, I'd extend the whipe and give them a dirty look until they went away. The character had practiced with it and so had like a skill of 4. During one run the 'Star made a raid on a meet and I had to escape through a junkyard (Demon in a bottle module) and came across a 'Star officer, I had to defend myself and only had teh whip, so, a few dice rolls and a sickening thulump iof torso later, the decker escaped. only to noisily vomit when the coast was clear, she had never taken a life before, and the shock got to her finally.

i find moral characters to be a great deal of fun, if you play it up. have a clear idea of what those morals are, why they have them and in what situations they'd really consider breaking them.

[kevyn668]

[RedmondLarry]

Over 4+ years of play, our team has had several moral characters (don't harm innocent people, don't steal from charity organizations, don't betray your comrades for personal gain, treat/heal police officers and innocent bystanders, etc.).

We've also had a few psychopaths, but not as many as we've had moral characters.

Sometimes our players take a break from their main character to roleplay someone who has an opposite moral code to either their main character or to their own moral code.

We enjoy the roleplaying interactions when team members have different moral codes.

[Phaeton]

My previous group was an interesting mix...

The Cat Shaman was the motherly type, the Coyote Shaman was prettymuch insane and well beyond morals (although he's harmless if you leave him and anyone he values alone), the elven ninja/samurai adept was a nice enough guy if you discounted the fact that his Vindictive flaw essentially functioned as a Combat Monster flaw (he pursued the fleeing Blood Spirit down the nuke plant tunnels by HIMSELF, for cripe's sake...), the ork merc was pure freelance, the ork ex-go-ganger was a jerk with a massive Bad Rep flaw but was more redeemable than the ork merc, the Japanese human empath was...Well...An empath, the elven sam/assassin was sociable enough despite her frequent brooding after she became turned into a woman by a free spirit when she was still a male (it was a weird game/group...), my rigger/sam namesake was ridiculously paranoid but generally neutral and wouldn't backstab someone who gained his trust (although that's difficult to do, so he generally was the quiet though not apathetic type), the elf decker/face was plenty sociable and generally quite ethical (probably more so than the rest), my combat decker dislikes children but otherwise is generally moral and agreeable, and my wakiyambi SURGE otaku is a goofball and a pacifist.

And thus concludes the Oversized Post of Doom +3.

[PBTHHHHT]

My group just played the DNA/DOA module and we managed to incapacitate everyone in the sector using stunball/stunbolt and/or suppressed pistols. We actually casted Treat on anyone we gave deadly wounds too and tied everyone up with duct tape and rope and stacked them up in a room. While the doggies that we stunned we taped/tied up to the card table to reenact the dogs playing poker scene....

We left a note with 30k nuyen and said that they needed it more than us (in terms of security). Left and on the way out turned back on the security stuff and elevator access, etc....

It was silly, but oh it's so much more worthwhile than slaughtering everyone in a place.

[Raife]

One of my characters was playing an Elven Paladin. It is a "different" sort of ethics he uses (a very elf centric one) but he is basically "good" and only running in the shadows to aid his master in the elven court.

[mfb]

our group is on an island full of shedim. i'm not sure if our sudden reticence about killing people counts as 'morality' or not.

[FlakJacket]

Depends on how quickly they realise that feeding people though a wood chipper negates the shedim threat. ;)

[Person 404]

Not if they're master shedim. :vegm:

[Herald of Verjig...]

A shedim can regenerate a host up to the condition it was in at the moment of possession. This can happen as you are taking the body to the chipper or (for the sick minded) at the moment of death as the victim is being chipped. It'll be rather disturbing as the body tries to maul you and an endless stream of bits and pieces is exiting the chipper, but it is still a valid host.

If you're going to kill when shedim are about, you need a pyromaniac. Ashes can't be possessed. A fire obsessed spell slinger works well because his fuel recharges at one box each hour or better.

[Plastic Rat]

[Kagetenshi]

[tjn]

It's kinda odd for me to read this thread, because the vast majority of the characters that run through our table are very much "ethical" or at the very least uber professional.

Our games have developed in a vein akin to the old looney toons cartoon where Wile E Coyote and the sheep dog go off to "work" together. They sip coffee and talk bulldrek until they clock in like long time co-workers, however after they clock in, they become bitter enemies trying to stop each other at every turn. Then the whistle blows, they clock back out and go home like the fighting and trying to kill each other never happened.

Granted sometimes Lonestar and the targets of the runs (or their security) don't exactly see it the same way and Johnsons aren't exactly upfront with the runners....

But there's still somewhat of a theme that runs through the characters: no wetwork, no children, no innocents, never get personal with any run and never kill when incapacitating will work just as well. However, without the whackjobs to put these "ethical" runners in relief, it does loose an edge somehow. I guess without exploring how truly messed up a runner could be, the "ethical" ones still look like a bunch of criminals.

So in essence, don't go overboard with the "ethical" runners either :P In my opinion, part of the grit of Shadowrun comes from the nature of the society of the Shadows. The reaction of "And these are the good guys?!" gives a visceral weight to Shadowrun I find pleasing.

Though, this thread has given me the germ of the idea of what I'm going to run when I GM next. ;) Thanks.

[MrSandman666]

Hm, seems like I have a somewhat peculiar view on ethics in the shadows... I like to run my games in a way that the players are moral beings in an amoral world (and I do play my own PCs that way, too). Just playing "all is good" and sticking to your moral code without a hitch does get boring fast. To me the fun comes from the conflict of the PC's moral codex with the harsh reality. Things get interesting when the Players/PCs are forced to act against their own morals. To me this is a means to explore the dark depths and rifts of the human psyche. In the end it's about inner conlicts, priorities, decisions and consequences.
Like the character who had to shoot a kid in self defense and was traumatized by it for months.
In my games, the PC who has a somewhat humane moral code, consciously breaks it against his will and then plays out the mental consequences gets the most karma. Likewise, an ice-cold character with no morals at all who mindlessly but professionaly and successfully works his way through the runs will get next to no karma from me except for the bare minimum for completing the job.

I also like to have moral PCs in my group and face them with amoral NPCs to show them the harshness of the world, partially to see how they deal with it but mainly to ensure them in their moral path, to make them feel disgusted and repelled by this lack of morals. And I do hope (probably in vain) that the players take some of the experiences from the gaming table with them into their lives...

To me, Shadowrun is not a tactical action game. It's more like theater, like a good novel. It's about drama, it's about human souls surviving in a mean world. It's about tragical heroes, about the heroes of everyday life. It's about finding one's own way, about reflecting upon your deeds and your feelings. It's about making mistakes and growing with them, learning from them.

Sorry, I got carried away by my own enthusiasm. Did I get too melodramatic again? :(

Edited for clarity

This post has been edited by MrSandman666: Jun 29 2004, 01:14 PM

[Cray74]

[Vharn]

After all the years of killing every single enemy jumping around in front of my MPs, I started ...caring about the poor guards (the few that are left ;) ) with families at home, the innocent bystanders only leaving the house for some chips and coke for the evening with her girlfriend...
not to mention that runners celebrating their daily slaughter at work don't look too professional after all...
So my long-time-played sammie decided from now on not to harm anyone he meets...too many ghosts of killed guys visiting every night anyway...even try to convince the others to use some gel rounds for more professionality or just from a greater responsibility... they are stronger, faster, much more powerful than any "normal" human being out there...so uncle ben's phrase "with great power..." and so on comes to mind..

I think I just overdid it a little with my new chaosmage...maybe a little bit too much Trigun for me :)=
so this guy uses most of his power to prevent killing.
Magic Fingers to point barrels in a...less lethal direction. treat for healing deadly wounded enemies, having his ally cast armor on other endangered enemies, using gel rounds or more preferable tasers (i just _love_ these things) and permanent talk about "non-lethal" methods...I only fear it becomes a bit annoying...for the others..we'll see

[Plastic Rat]

Sandman666, awesome post man, I guess you've just reminded me why I carry on playing a "good" character. With the conflicts currently developing in our game, I think there's one hell of a story developing.

[toturi]

I had a friend whose PC looked on ethics as a form of professionalism. If he wasn't paid to kill, he will not do it. Any person that he hurt in the course of the run, he did so because that person prevented his successful completion of that run. He never used non-lethal options, all his options were lethal. Either he didn't kill or you are dead, nothing done halfway.

[MrSandman666]