 the street index of the centurion laser axe |
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 Jul 3 2004, 02:06 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 160 Joined: 16-August 03 Member No.: 5,501  |
i was filliping through the cannon companion and i found what i think is an anomaly.
the ultra new and shiny centurion laser crescent axe has a street index of . 5 that is less than most pistols and equal to the street index of the areas predator. for such a high tech weapon i don't think that this is right... just thought that i should bring this to the attention of people out in the matrix. |
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Jul 3 2004, 02:16 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 577 Joined: 12-June 04 Member No.: 6,398 |
I've never understood why the Street Index is ever less than 1 myself. But when it comes to weapon stats, things like that are a mystery anyway.
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Jul 3 2004, 03:03 AM
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#3
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
A street index less than 1 indicates market saturation. I can buy a Glock for 700. I can head to a nearby town, talk to some people, and get one plus a few mags for maybe 150. That's street index.
The crescent axe is just retarded, though. You're better off ignoring its existence. |
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Jul 3 2004, 03:07 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 596 Joined: 18-February 03 Member No.: 4,112 |
IMO items would only have a street index of <1 when they are goods that you could normally buy over the counter without any legal complications, such as pocket knives, survival kits and so on. Why a laser axe would fall into this category is anyone's guess.
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Jul 3 2004, 03:28 AM
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#5
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Items that might fall off a truck in bulk could also have sub-one SI.
Clearly, though, the Centurion Laser Axe has a .5 SI because everyone and their grandmother has a pair under their bed and a third in the closet. ~J |
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Jul 3 2004, 03:34 AM
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#6
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Heh. More likely, it's because people buy them saying "wow, that's cool!" and then discover the alignment issues and don't care for them so much any more. People on the street have probably heard through the hype and simply aren't willing to pay full price for it. Something that's supported by the Shadowtalk in the Street Samurai Catalog at least. It was SI .5 back then, too. |
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Jul 3 2004, 03:56 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 577 Joined: 12-June 04 Member No.: 6,398 |
If the market became that saturated, the effect would be found in the "real" items, too. Because the black market would just be selling them through legal channels rather than taking a cut by selling them to a bunch of scumbags.
And I'm sure you do all your buying through the same channels you get your uranium, Arethusa. You're just that bad ass with your connections. Word. Nevermind that what you describe is essentially a discount from friends/negotiations/used or cheap items/whatever. Becuase you can do the same thing at a pawn shop, an Army surplus store, or anywhere else they trade in used items/stolen/surplus items whether you're using a legal channel or not. Hence my lack of a decent rationale for any Street Index for equal-quality items that's less than 1.0. |
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Jul 3 2004, 04:05 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 8-June 03 Member No.: 4,696 |
Legal channels, perhaps unsurprisingly, face risks from selling stolen goods, especially ones that require paperwork. In the case of mass thefts ("fell off the back of a truck"), it's really pretty stupid to jack a bunch of something and then try to sell it off through legal, public channels.
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Jul 3 2004, 04:16 AM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 577 Joined: 12-June 04 Member No.: 6,398 |
Yes, and you can steal a bunch of Browning Max-Powers, Remington Roomsweepers, and Ruger Super Warhawks off the back of a truck, too. Yet their Street Index isn't below 1.0 either despite having the exact same Availability. Hell, the Ares Predator II has a Street Index of 0.5 yet its not as Available as the aforementioned weapons. If items were so common on the street that they'd warrant mass loss of income, their Availability should reflect that as well.
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Jul 3 2004, 04:19 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 325 Joined: 5-May 02 From: Various Planets Across the Galaxy Member No.: 2,689 |
Just because its legal doesn't mean its public. It could very well be someone who is licensed to deal out of their own home for example, but doesn't make it known to John Q. Foolhearty with a wife and two demons of his own.
However they could deal to their friends who happen to be living in society's cracks, and over time this business acquires a name on the streets for the place to go for these certain items. As far as the IRS type suits raising questions about their income, I don't think it'd be terribly difficult to circumvent this by selling only to people with decent fake SINs, or getting a competent buddy decker plant the files. I don't know. I'm sure you veterans can provide better examples than I, the ignorant n00b can. |
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Jul 3 2004, 05:01 AM
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#11
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Actually, Doc, that's a perfect rationale for it. The availiability rating applies to brand-new items. The street index applies to "Like new, only fired once, owned by a little old lady in Pasedena" items. Since the legal price has gone down, the street cost has gone down as well. Now, the rules don't apply stress to most items, so an item of good used quality is functionally the same as fresh-from-the-factory. If such rules existed, then I'd consider applying them to street-bought items. But, look at it this way. If I go to a gun store, I would find a very limited selection of brand-new pistols. I'd have no trouble finding something that approximated a streetline special, but finding a brand-new one would be trickier. However, I can find loads of used ones-- so many, in fact, the market would be glutted and I can get a very decent price on it. Now, the big retailers wouldn't bother with used guns-- anyone who's buying a brand-new gun either has so much cash as to not worry about price, or is is after something very specific-- but small-time gun shops or eBay sellers would have to worry about being undercut. Thus, the used price drops significantly, while retail remains unchanged. In Shadowrun terms, I can walk into any gun store, and find racks upon racks of hold-out pistols. (True today, as well.) I'd have to pay full price for, say, the latest Tiffani purse gun, in this year's fashion colors and with new accessory clip. Or, if I wanted, I could slip someone a few nuyen on eBay and have them send me a gun that they've had sitting around the shop for a few years, and haven't been able to unload. They take a price hit, but at least they've cleared out some dead stock. |
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Jul 3 2004, 05:07 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 577 Joined: 12-June 04 Member No.: 6,398 |
And thus you could buy them at the aforementioned Army surplus stores, gun shows, and pawn shops through legal channels for the exact same price. Used does not equal Black Market. You'll also note that when the rules do talk about used items -- namely cyberware -- Street Index isn't modified, only Availability (and even then it remains exactly the same). |
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Jul 3 2004, 05:27 AM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 325 Joined: 5-May 02 From: Various Planets Across the Galaxy Member No.: 2,689 |
So does this mean I can go into a gun store and throw a brand new gun on the floor, pick it up, go up to the teller and say "this one is dented. How about a price cut?" :D
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Jul 3 2004, 05:28 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 8-June 03 Member No.: 4,696 |
I think the process goes more like go into a gun store, throw a brand new gun on the floor, get kicked out of gun store.
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Jul 3 2004, 05:58 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 325 Joined: 5-May 02 From: Various Planets Across the Galaxy Member No.: 2,689 |
What if I use magic to knock it off the shelf then walk over, pick it up, and say "excuse me, this fell on the floor. How about a price cut?" :D
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Jul 3 2004, 07:04 AM
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#16
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Actually, in the case of guns, the "black market" doesn't necessarily mean illegal. Pawn shops, private owners, and eBay can all equal a huge grey market. You don't seem to understand that while buying guns and weapons through those channels isn't illegal, it's not precicely legal, either-- hence the term "grey market". And while the normal market may or may not be saturated, if the grey market is, prices for used items will be driven down. Let's use comic books as another example. (We can substitute in beanie babies, Magic cards, or the collectable of your choice.) New comics have a fixed price-- cover price-- that everyone will be selling at. You decide to sell off a few older comics that you have-- you figure, at 3 bucks apiece for retail, you should make as much back, right? Now, having sold more than a few comics in my life, I can safely say: Not a chance in hell. Unless the comic you have is ultra-rare, you're going to be lucky to even come close to cover price. While the cover price may be more, the amount you'll get from selling it will be significantly lower-- and if the title's not especially popular, it may even end up in the 25-cent bin. A similar thing can happen for guns and the like. New guns won't alter their price much, since those prices are set by the manufacturer. However, "like new" guns might just be glutting the market. People will still buy new guns, just like people will buy new comics-- or new Magic packs, even though there's a fair chance of repeats-- but the used market will be saturated and prices will drop. You'll also note that for used cyber, the price is directly modified, which translates into a street index reduction. Street index only affects price, after all. We could use the price modifiers as street index modifiers insead; the math would still work out. |
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Jul 3 2004, 07:15 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 577 Joined: 12-June 04 Member No.: 6,398 |
We're not talking about the "grey market" or even weapons. We're talking about the Street Index. When you buy something with a Street Index, they are not used items (well, they can be, but they're not be default). They're every bit as brand-spanking-new as if you had bought them at the Mall of America. The description for what Street Index is supposed to represent just makes it that much more baffling -- it's supposed to represent, at least primarily, how many "middle men" ("from thieves to their fences to black marketeers to fixers to runners") your dealer had to go through before said item makes it into your hand. Apparently, some items -- very specific items, not just general items -- are easier to get on the black market than they are through completely legal channels. So much so that it's cheaper because they go through fewer "middle men." Or something. Somehow. And only for very specific items. For some reason. That I can't fathom. Because it's stupid. Discounts for used, stressed, or otherwise cheap equipment should be a universal modifier. A low Street Index is not an indication of any of those things by default.
No it doesn't and no we can't. They're two completely seperate things. A reduction in price doesn't equal Street Index anymore than any of the other things you're trying to BS with above. |
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Jul 3 2004, 07:37 AM
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#18
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Is there some reason you're assuming that all items you get through a fixer were at some point purchased for full retail price? And is it at all a sensible reason?
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Jul 3 2004, 09:07 AM
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#19
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Arethusa said in the 3rd msg in this thread: "I can buy a Glock for 700. I can head to a nearby town, talk to some people, and get one plus a few mags for maybe 150. That's street index." And I completely agree. Other items that sure as hell have a sub-zero "Street Index" IRL, at least in Finland, include alcohol and tobacco, video games, music, (old) firearms, gasoline, cars, etc.
Goods which are easy to bootleg or steal, goods which people just "have to" get, and especially goods which are heavily taxed or otherwise restricted -- permits, etc. Such goods are often cheaper to buy on the streets, if you've got contacts, than over the counter and legally. The difference in quality is negligible as long as you have decent fixers and don't mind having bootleg items sometimes. I'll agree that the Centurion Laser Axe Street Index is, uhh, a bit silly, as is the weapon itself. So just change the SI to 2, for example |
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Jul 3 2004, 02:11 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 577 Joined: 12-June 04 Member No.: 6,398 |
The problem isn't that they're easy to steal (that would be reflected in Availability), or "have to get" (I doubt if an Ares Predator is in more demand than any other pistol), or heavily taxed (ditto). The problem is the exact opposite -- they're identical. There's no reason why most of the items should have a comparitely low Street Index compared to other items.
Blanket items having a low Street Index with exceptions being significantly higher... that I can almost see. Clothing in general, pistols in general, electronics in general, etc. But there's no logical reason anyone here has given me for an Ares Predator to have a lower Street Index than, say, a Browning Max Power, Remington Roomsweeper, or Ruger Super Warhawk, or any of the other pistols with an identical Availability or similar base cost. Note also that you put firearms in the (old) category. As in used and outdated. But... oh well, nevermind. I'll give up the topic. |
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Jul 3 2004, 02:31 PM
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#21
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
People've already said that it's because there are more of them. Maybe if you said why you find that unsatisfactory, it'd help. |
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Jul 3 2004, 02:41 PM
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#22
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Okay, I was still under the impression you were saying that no item should ever have Street Index below one. Because you said: "I've never understood why the Street Index is ever less than 1 myself. But when it comes to weapon stats, things like that are a mystery anyway." Anyway... I agree that there is no good reason why one specific item would have a far lower SI than another similar item, at least when that leads to a far lower street price as well. The 0.5 SI of the Ares Predator that you mentioned, for example, is a bit silly when most other Heavy Pistols are at 1 or more. SIs should be similar with similar items, like you said. Slight variations aren't a proble, but half the street price with two almost identical weapons is odd, since the Predator is certainly not an AK-47 of handguns.
Yes, I put the (old) there on purpose. It takes a while for firearms to end up on the streets and cheap. That's why an AK-97 should have a really low SI compared to an Ares Alpha, for example. High-tech, brand spanking new weapons that are not used in large numbers shouldn't have low SIs. And yes, weapons sold on the streets probably are used more often than not. That has nothing to do with being outdated though. A 20-year-old AK-74 is hardly outdated. And it can be premium quality, too, assuming it's been maintained well. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Jul 3 2004, 02:44 PM |
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Jul 3 2004, 02:49 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 577 Joined: 12-June 04 Member No.: 6,398 |
Because there aren't more of them. That's a reflection of Availability. As has been said multiple times. But like I said, I'm dropping it... just clarifying this one point. |
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Jul 3 2004, 04:05 PM
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#24
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
One wonders how I could ever get ammo for my Slivergun, seeing as there are as many clips of flechette ammo as there are units of the gun! :P Availability rates how hard it is to get someone to sell you one, not how many of them there are. Quantity may have an effect on that but it isn't the sole determiner. There is still some bare-minimum difficulty (TN 3), no matter how many are out there, to buying a heavy pistol illegally. |
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Jul 3 2004, 04:29 PM
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#25
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
neither Availability nor Street Index necessarily indicate how many there are. If there are 500,000 Kewl Lazer Axes in a Yak warehouse, waiting for the arrival of the promised Badass Axe Samurai Brigade from Nippon, the Availability for them might be pretty high because the Yaks don't want any of their enemies getting hands on them. however, if you're friends with the right Yaks, you might be able to get one of those Kewl Lazer Axes for only half what you'd pay at Weapons World--after all, there's only 50 Badass Axe Samurai in the entire Badass Axe Samurai Brigade, leaving 499,950 Kewl Lazer Axes that the Yaks will have to offload at some point.
the moral of the story is, economics is a subject that people spend years and years studying, and you shouldn't assume that your limited ability to count the number of dollars in your wallet amounts to a grasp of the subtleties of the economic world--more to the point, you shouldn't assume that the combination of Street Index and Availability can do more than roughly approximate that widely-studied discipline. because i'm growing moderate in my old age, i'll note here that if you feel insulted by the above, it's because you're not grasping the humor. |
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