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 the street index of the centurion laser axe |
 Jul 4 2004, 02:30 AM
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#26
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Grand Master of Run-Fu  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178  |
Actually, that goes both ways. What is true is that the items bought are considered to be of like-new quality, with no significant flaws. Rather or not they're still-got-the-original-packaging new is highly debateable-- and in some cases, directly contraindicated, as in the case of Deckers with the backstory of building their own decks.
You've just described the entire basis for smuggling. Okay, let's go for a real-world example. Right now, there's a huge controversy, because perscription drugs cost significantly less in Canada than they do here. There's an active "smuggling" market, where either people ship the drugs here, or drive seniors up there. This is all illegal on the whole, but each step is actually perfectly legal, which complicates matters. (Technically, it's illegal to leave the country with the intent to buy drugs; but proving intent is damnably hard, especailly since simple posession isn't a crime.) This whole mess isn't exactly "black market", but it's not perfectly legal and aboveboard either. Thus, "grey market", for things that aren't actually illegal but are transacted in a less-than-legal manner.
I can see one right off the bat: cheap knock-offs. Remember, by canon, the Ares Predator isn't a specific gun-- it represents a whole lot of different handgun designs with minimal differences. If we also include a bundle of cheap forgeries, that work just as well, then the entire set of handguns will be devalued. The only problem is that by canon, we assume that all guns work identically to their brand-new condition, which isn't the case-- but in any event, that's a different lack, and not a problem with the Street Index rules. The Ares Predator, in particular, seems to be representative of a whole lot of different handguns-- any semiauto pistol from .40 to .50 BMG would be my guess, although I'll leave it to the gun experts to tell me the specifics. The Ruger Super Warhawk seems to be the representative gun for all single-action, large-caliber revolvers. If we assume there's more semiautos on the market than revolvers, (a fair assumption, based on the last time I went to a gun store) then there's a good reason for them to have a lower availiability. |
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Jul 4 2004, 04:23 AM
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#27
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
There are a lot of good points being of made. SI is, on a whole, a representation of supply vs. demand. If there is a demand for that type of item and a limited supply, there will be a high SI. If there is a low demand in relation to the supply, there will be a low SI. In the case of the laser axe, there is a lot less demand than there is supply (because of the alignment issues). It's rare that anyone actually buys one compared to how many dealers have them on the shelves.
Eventually, the dealers start cutting the prices, hoping for more buyers. Eventually, the prices dip below the MSRP and you get get a sub 1 SI. I'd also say that the price people pay for items on a legal basis has some variation which isn't reflected in the rules. Just because a widget normally sells for 1000 :nuyen: doesn't mean that Joe Wageslave pays 1000 for it. Take automobiles today. I recently bought a car and payed about 5% less than the MSRP. If I'd wanted a high demand/low supply vehicle (most of the hybrids these days) I could have expected to pay 5-10% or more over MSRP. |
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Jul 4 2004, 07:14 AM
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#28
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,928 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
The Centurion Laser Axe has a lower SI because when you need the laser realigned you can't take it into Weapons World and have the work done. Because you don't know if the serial numbers are going to show up as stolen and land you in jail.
Predator !! has low SI because there are so many used ones floating around driving the demand down in the secondary market. At least that's the explanations in my game. |
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Jul 4 2004, 10:31 AM
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#29
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I'm not an expert, but .50BMG and pistols don't match. See here for why. That's pretty close to real size, at least on a 17" monitor. No, the .50s you get in pistols are not BMGs. This is why you should always, always use the full names of calibers. The .50 Desert Eagles are .50 Action Express (.50 AE), the .50 Barretts and M2HBs are .50 Browning Machine Gun (.50 BMG). When people first hear of .50 pistols and rifles and machine guns and then they hear about there being .50 BMGs, they are bound to make that mistake. I blame the US military. The lower limit of Heavy Pistols is certainly debatable, because there are no Medium Pistols, but I'd consider the "Ares Predator" entry to cover most large-frame low-priced pistols in the .357 SIG - .45 Winchester Magnum range.
Sure, the differences between Ares Predators and Ruger Super Warhawks I don't have much of a problem with. Now take Ares Predators vs Browning Max-Powers. The Browning Max-Power entry covers weapons that are otherwise identical to the Ares Predator, except that they have a smaller frame, and somehow they are twice as expensive on the street, even though they are equally expensive when bought over-the-counter and they are just as available in the grey and black markets. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Jul 4 2004, 10:33 AM |
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Jul 4 2004, 11:28 PM
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#30
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
My mistake. .50 AE, then.
I'd suggest the cheap knock-off factor. Ares being the premier gun maker, if someone's going to make a knock-off, they're going to copy the top-of-the-line product and not a midrange one. I also believe that somewhere in the books, it mentions an Ares executive who accidentally flooded the market in an attempt to gain dominance. Another thing to consider is concealability. Smaller guns with equal power would be more popular. Finally, while I don't know guns very well at all, sometimes very small differences can make a huge difference in price. Just look at car prices for several good examples of this. |
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Jul 5 2004, 12:26 AM
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#31
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
I'm gonna use that the next time one of my players asks for a Barret 121. Fixer: "Sure i can get one, but your like the 4th person to ask for one and there not that easy to come by to start with..." |
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Jul 5 2004, 02:10 AM
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#32
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Certainly fits with the SI of the Barret and its ammo. There are simply fewer guns on the market than there are snipers looking to buy them ;)
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Jul 5 2004, 03:43 AM
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#33
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
It's a safe bet the small-frame Ares "heavy pistol" sells more than the Browning Max-Power. The entry is named after a less-common pistol of the type in order to avoid repetition. There would be tons of cheap knock-offs of those Ares pistols, too, which are statistically identical to Browning Max-Powers.
This doesn't work too well with these particular 2 gun archetypes, because they both seem to represent guns from a great range of makers, and they are nearly identical except that the other is smaller-framed. I think you would struggle to find an example of car prices where two cars from the same manufacturer (representing Ares), one sedan and one smaller but otherwise almost identical, cost the same amount when you buy them new and over-the-counter, but the other is half the price when you buy one stolen, smuggled or just under-the-counter. Some price variation might well be present, at +/- 10-20%, but not that much. |
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Jul 5 2004, 07:03 AM
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#34
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Maybe, maybe not. There's a lot of cheap knock-offs of Britney Spears CD's, and fewer knockoffs of Enya. There's no accounting for taste.
Kia cars in general tend to run like that. The newer models tend to hold their value much better, but the low-end Rio's lose their values really quickly. As a little-known fact, the Ford Aspires were originally made by Kia, before they started their own line of sedans. So, if we compare a 97 Aspire to a 98 Sephia, we see very little difference in book cost. IIRC, they were both released as low-cost cars, so they would have been similar in price. So, what happens when we run an eBay motors search? When checking out completed listings on "Ford Aspire", I get a top price of $1,100 for an Aspire. When ckeching out "Kia Sephia 1998", my top price is $2400. At the bottom end, the cheapest Aspire (a 97, incidentally) goes for $500, versus $1450 for a 98 Sephia. I'm far too lazy to do a more detailed check than all that, but that should prove my point. Prices for very similar cars can vary widely. I didn't have to struggle much at all to find those cars for comparison, either-- the hardest part was digging up the exact prices on eBay. If I wanted to run a less fair comparison, I'd compare a 98 Sephia with a 2004 Optima. |
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Jul 5 2004, 07:10 AM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 577 Joined: 12-June 04 Member No.: 6,398 |
"Cheap knock-offs" don't account for Street Index any more than most of the stuff you've mentioned, too. If it did, just about everything would have a cheaper Street Index. "Cheap knock-offs" would also be listed as a legal price, just like your aforementioned browsing on eBay demonstrates.
Street Index means exactly one thing: The price you pay when purchasing the exact same item on the Black Market. It's not a cheap knock-off. It's not a used item. It's exactly the same as the legal item in all ways except one: You bought it on the Black Market instead of a legal shop. If there was a "cheap knock-off" aspect to equipment, it would be a universal modifier like "used item" would be. Neither of these are covered for most equipment in the game, however, but then again neither is "superior workmanship." |
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Jul 5 2004, 02:21 PM
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#36
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
You're free to see the Street Index like that, certainly. Judging from general trends in Streed Indices, the game designers did not necessarily see it like that. Sub-zero SIs are prevalent in too many item types for such a definition of the Street Index to make absolute sense. The section defining the Street Index does not say the item you buy from black or grey markets with the Street Index modifier is the exact same thing, unused and original, either. I see items bought with the Street Index as the type of items you'd get from the grey and black markets IRL. Many items are more or less used and rare items are completely new, legal and illegal copies of varying quality are not uncommon.
Well, no, but the RL market for small arms would suggest that medium-frame medium-large caliber pistols are not significantly less often copied than large-frame medium-large caliber pistols. There are tons of concealable .45s that look more or less like an M1911, for example, and Taurus has as many Beretta-like pistols with medium frames and small frames as it has large frames in it's catalog. That particular argument, therefore, could not possibly account for more than the 10-20% that I mentioned, if that. And I haven't got a fricken clue what those cars are you're talking about. Car models have completely different names around here, not to mention that american cars often use different manufacturer names around here. What I want to see, however, are two cars which are basically the same model but of different sizes -- a Toyota Corolla hatchback and sedan for example -- which are of the exact same price as new, but one is ½ the price of the other when bought used (or from a grey or black market, if you can provide reliable figures). I do not think your example comes even close to that. |
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Jul 5 2004, 04:19 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 577 Joined: 12-June 04 Member No.: 6,398 |
Perhaps. But the description of what Street Index is, within the game itself as opposed to personal (my own included) interpretations, is that it almost exclusively represents the number of middlemen the item had to go through before reaching your hands. That brand new Ares Predator you bought from your fixer is a brand new Ares Predator. It's not a slightly dented Aries Preditor that's only been fired once; it's a brand new Ares Predator.
But, for some reason, because it had to go through more channels and cross more hands, it's cheaper if you buy it from your fixer than a guy at a gun store. |
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Jul 5 2004, 04:27 PM
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#38
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Taking the definition literally, yes you could conclude that. Perhaps the SI section could be cleared up a bit, because I'm pretty sure that was not the designers' intention. Still, it never even occurred to me that a weapon bought "from the street" would be brand new and always of the exact same quality as a legally bought weapon.
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Jul 5 2004, 08:13 PM
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#39
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
And prices will vary significantly by area. Basically, the Kia Sephia and the Ford Aspire are the same car, made by the same manufacturer, under a different name. The Aspire is a hatchback, and the Sephia is a sedan-- for the purposes of which we're examining it, the rest of the differences are cosmetic. The problem is that I'd view a Browning and Ares Predator as different "models"-- admittedly models with very little difference between them, but different models nontheless. Sort of like the difference between a Ford Focus and Ford Taurus-- one's just bigger than the other.
Except that "Ares Predator" isn't a singular item. Check out the "Developer's Say" in the intro to CC. He lists over 60 "Ares Predator" type guns, with different manufacturers! If you can buy an "Ares Predator" that wasn't made by Ares, by canon, the cheap knock-off factor does come into play. What's more, it's not "exactly the same". The differences are largely cosmetic, and have no affect on game play, true enough-- but there's a ton of differences between them. I mean, what's the difference between the "Ares Predator" made by Ruger, with walnut grips and a ambidextrous safety, versus the "Ares Predator" made by Ares, in blued steel with plastic grips? Or the one made by Cavalier Arms, with a matte black finish and an extra centimeter of barrel length? With all these variations possible, why not include the "scuffed-up, cracked grip, with a replacement firing pin installed after the first ten thousand rounds, old but still serviceable" Predator? Game mechanics wise, what's the difference? |
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Jul 5 2004, 08:36 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 577 Joined: 12-June 04 Member No.: 6,398 |
Once again: That's a trait of *all* Ares Predators, not just the ones bought with Street Index. The legal one you bought at Hank's Gun Emporium can be the very same Ruger-manufcatured "Ares Predator" with walnut grip and ambidexterous safety that you bought from Frank the Fixer. But because Frank had to go through all kinds of middlemen and get around all kinds of laws, he miracously gives you a 50% reduction in price.
Street Index does not indicate quality. Street Index does not indicate brand name or lack thereof. Street Index does not derive used status. Street Index's primary role is middlemen. SR3 p. 173. Read it sometime. All of your arguments are also silly when compared to any item that has a Street Index of 1 or higher. Apparently, according to your theories, that slightly used Walther PB-120 knock-off costs twice as much as a genuine brand-name brand-spanking-new Walther PB-120 does. Oh, and just as a side note, those custom finishes you mentioned above do increase the cost of the weapon as per the Custom Finish customization option. |
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Jul 5 2004, 08:55 PM
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#41
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Once again, Street Index *does* sometimes indicate used status. What it doesn't indicate is less-than-new quality. See the difference? What's the difference, game-mechanics wise, between a stress-free used item, and a brand new one?
What does Astral Projection have to do with anything? :P No wonder why you're confused. You should try reading p 273, BBB, sometime-- that's where the SI rules are. Didn't you wonder what Astral Space had to do with buying things on the sly? :P Anyways, if you had read the correct page, you'd see that the first paragraph indicates usage of both shadow and grey markets, and the sentence you refer to includes: "usually" "Tends to" and "if"-- a whole lot of qualifiers.
Not all items have knock-offs. Heck, some items can't be duplicated cheaply. If you go wandering around a flea market, you can find all kinds of stuff-- some of which was even acquired legally. Stuff that's easily duplicated, such as DVD's, can be found for dirt cheap. Stuff that's more difficult to make-- such as big illegal fireworks-- tends to be much more expensive.
Wrong. Custom Finish is for making guns look especially nice, nicer than stock models, or adding a nonstandard finish. All of the finishes I mentioned are perfectly standard, and don't make the gun look any better than normal. |
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Jul 5 2004, 09:09 PM
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#42
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Smuggling and fencing result in one of two outcomes.
One, the price is lower than the legal purchase price because it may have a questionable history. Two, the price is higher than the theoretical legal price, but still less costly than going through all the nonsense to be able to purchase it legally. If the black market wasn't cheaper or showing some other benefit, it wouldn't exist. In many items (SI greater than 1), the benefit has to do with not having a questionable item linked to your SIN or even being able to purchase it without some hard to get paperwork. With some items (SI below 1) the benefit is cost with some easily ignored extra risks involved. |
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Jul 5 2004, 09:58 PM
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#43
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Senior GM Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12-April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442 |
In a free market with multiple sources for a given item (say an "Ares Predator") the price of the item is not dependent upon how many middle men it goes through. It will be sold for whatever the market will bear, which is controlled by supply and demand, plus the results of whatever negotiation happens between the buyer and seller.
How many middle men a particular vendor has to go through will affect his cost, and thus his profit, but doesn't directly affect what the market will bear. In the negotiations, think about car salesmen in the USA. They spend all day, every day, negotiating a selling price. The average person doesn't stand a chance without help. Even though my Fixer finds me jobs and fences my loot, I keep in the back of my mind the idea that he's just a used car salesman without a business license. |
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Jul 6 2004, 12:02 AM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 478 Joined: 18-December 03 From: Louisville, KY Member No.: 5,918 |
Public Service Announcement:
The Centurion combat axe sucks hardcore. And so does that fraggin oral whip. Thank You |
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Jul 6 2004, 04:56 AM
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#45
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
I don't like these interpretations for less-than-one SI's here.
The cheap-knock-off thing is lame. If it's a "cheap" knock off, then what makes it cheap? It costs the same as a real Predator, so it can't be cheap in terms of price. If "cheap" means it's not well constructed, then that's a blatant misnomer. It works exactly the same, so in fact it is well constructed. The thing about Ares Predators not all actually being Ares Predators is also a major stretch. Is it reasonable for you to ask a contact for an Ares Predator and recieve another pistol entirely? If for some reason it were, why does one always recieve a pistol with stats identical to that of the Predator? (i.e. you ask for a Predator-like gun and recieve a Cavalier Prey-eater. Next month you ask for a Predator-like gun and recieve a Browning Carnivore. Why, if such a wide range of pistols is acceptable, do you never recieve a Colt Manhunter?) That makes for a pretty bizarre situation, regardless of whether it is canon. ( Which I don't think it is! As I read the "Developers Say" bit about the 60-to-one ratio, I notice that he is not saying that the listed Ares Predator actually represents 60 other pistols. What he is saying is that it is unreasonable to list 60 pistols in a Shadowrun rulebook to represent guns that are very similar.) I don't see why these interpretations are necessary, either. Why can't they simply be prolific? |
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Jul 6 2004, 06:01 AM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 131 Joined: 1-April 02 From: Finland, Iisalmi Member No.: 2,497 |
The thing why Predator has S.I. < 1, is because there is 2 "updated versions" of it, namely the Predator II and III. It's the same as with mobile phones nowadays, whenever Nokia(or insert the manufacturer of choice) releases a new model, all those trendy, rich, young people go into a frenzy about getting a new phone for themselves.
Hell, I'll even tell you a real life example. I recently bought a Nokia N-Gage for 108,90 €. When the N-Gage hit the markets, it's price was around 300 €. Why did it's price drop so much? Because the N-Gage QD is just around the corner, and the retailers want to get rid of their old stock, that's why. And also, I have studied some economics and I can say that S.I. and availability are both a function of supply and demand. Look at the item lists, and most easily gotten stuff has S.I. of 1. Now look at some harder to get stuff, like heavy weaponry and such, their S.I. is at least 2, if not even more. |
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Jul 6 2004, 06:25 AM
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#47
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
There are really two separate issues being debated here. Doc did explicitly say he didn't understand why street index ever drops below 1, which, of course, has been gone into throughout this thread, starting the third post in the thread.
He explicitly questioned how street index can be low while availability fails to reflect market saturation, and the about only answer here is that availability is undeniably fucked up throughout the game and in few places as fucked up as it is with weapons (note, there are exceptions where weird availabilitis are rationalized through shadowtalk or obscure reasonings, but that's fairly rare). But that's just how it is with the canon weapons numbers (for a good time, turn to the stats for a club and take a look at availability and legality), and the only sensible thing to do is revise it for your game. |
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Jul 6 2004, 06:39 AM
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#48
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
The proper answer is that the availability does not fail to reflect market saturation. It simply fails, as it should, to reflect only market saturation. |
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Jul 6 2004, 07:35 AM
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#49
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Given that, to my knowledge, there are no other factors that are not, for all practical purposes, more or less equal to other quite similar heavy pistols, market saturation'd be the main thing in question, here.
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Jul 6 2004, 08:02 AM
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#50
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Yes, and because there's only so many configurations on the market. When most people go gun shopping, they go for a gun to fill a role. They might walk in with a few brand names and ideas, but they'll generally settle for any gun that will fit the bill. If I need a duck-hunting shotgun, I might have my heart set on that Remington, but I'll probably settle for the SKS. |
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