Force 18 Armor --> Help Please

Force 18 Armor --> Help Please, Force 18 Armor --> Help Please

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Dice

Jul 8 2004, 11:08 PM

Post #51

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QUOTE (shadd4d)

But look at what is happening if you shot him with a naval weapon. Even if his armor reduces it to 2D, he'd still have to roll 5s due to wound penalties.

Wound Penalties don't apply to body rolls to resist damage...

shadd4d View Member Profile	Jul 8 2004, 11:33 PM Post #52
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 10-April 04 From: Chicago, IL...Ich vermisse Deutschland. Member No.: 6,230	True (I forgot that). Still, Mr. Super Troll is also slower than molasses in January. He probably doesn't have a high quickness, i.e. a slow reaction plus he's only rolling 1d6 initiative or he'd suffer magic loss with a sustaining focus and a +X reaction spell. He's slow. Multiple people in Melee could beat him up. When in doubt, toss lots of goons at him. He'll go down, it just might be a bit difficult. Don

Misfit Toy View Member Profile	Jul 8 2004, 11:46 PM Post #53
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 577 Joined: 12-June 04 Member No.: 6,398	If he's Grade 3 he could easily have Quickening or Tattoo Magic, thus still have a high Initiative score. He's also a mage, so he can summon a swarm (albeit 4 at most unless he spent a lot of Karma raising his Charisma or bought some Edges) of spirits to handle melee for him.

tisoz

Jul 9 2004, 01:34 AM

Post #54

Free Spirit

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QUOTE (Core Dump)

QUOTE (tisoz @ Jul 7 2004, 09:25 PM)

Due to the upgrading gear rules, A starting character could have a rating 18 lodge for 9000 nuyen in less than three weeks. He only needs to buy 3 rating 6 lodge materials and spend 18 days setting it up. The rules are in SR3, pages 166-167.

Just buying 9000 nuyen of material is enough to get a Lodge Rating 18 (18 * 500=9000), you don't have to get 3 times the material for rating 6 lodges, as it costs the same.

You'd still need 18 days to set it up

Glad you agree. I wanted to break it down into standard starting limits for ratings on equipment. It also plainly explains why the character didn't need to roll an 18 on an Etiquette test to acquire the materials. Your example would have BitBasher calling for that TN 18 roll.

QUOTE

considering that you are setting up a Rating 18(!!) lodge, you'll be a shining beacon in the astral space for 18 days (and beyond)... not always a good idea if you ask me.

Considering you can set it up in about the space of a normal size room, and considering that mundane walls are opaque in astral space, no one is likely to notice any shining beacon. Unless you make it a point to pass through every building just to see if it happens to be warded or contain an astral barrier or lodge. Not the smartest thing to do.

Really, if the shaman is worried about attracting astral attention, and my shaman would probably feel more comfortable sleeping and projecting from within a huge astral barrier, he could dismantle the lodge when he is finished using it. The lodge materials are reusable, so he's only out the set-up time.

All in all, I think the shining, astral beacon idea sucks. The benefits outweigh the hazerds, IMO. Saefty from roving spirits/imps/shedim/astral projecting doofus's, a barrier to all those things and ritual sorcery/tracking, a bonus for creating formula, and a few others. I don't think it's illegal to have a high force lodge either, unless I missed something. They are basically immovable astral shelters.

ShadowGhost

Jul 9 2004, 02:11 AM

Post #55

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QUOTE (Sammiel @ Jul 8 2004, 05:17 PM)

QUOTE (ShadowGhost @ Jul 7 2004, 10:37 PM)

It's an Armor Spell - it provides 100% armor to your entire body - it can't be bypassed with a called shot.

as people pointed out before you even posted, yes, yes it can.

Only if your GM has is a retard with no absolutely no common sense.

The bypass Armor called shot is is vague, and should have been re-worded to say "bypass worn armor."

Otherwise I sink aircraft carriers with my 4L pistol, calling a shot to bypass armor.

If that's the kind of game you want to run, go right ahead.

Kagetenshi

Jul 9 2004, 02:17 AM

Post #56

Manus Celer Dei

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QUOTE (ShadowGhost)

Otherwise I sink aircraft carriers with my 4L pistol, calling a shot to bypass armor.

No you don't, because anything with a Hull rating will negate that even without any armor whatsoever.

~J

Arethusa

Jul 9 2004, 02:53 AM

Post #57

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QUOTE (ShadowGhost)

Only if your GM has is a retard with no absolutely no common sense.

The bypass Armor called shot is is vague, and should have been re-worded to say "bypass worn armor."

I assume, then, you have no objection when I pull out a handgun and inexplicably bypass your full body suit of FFBA or military armor?

Necro Tech

Jul 9 2004, 03:14 AM

Post #58

UMS O.G.

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QUOTE (tisoz)

QUOTE (Core Dump @ Jul 8 2004, 02:26 PM)

QUOTE (tisoz @ Jul 7 2004, 09:25 PM)

Due to the upgrading gear rules, A starting character could have a rating 18 lodge for 9000 nuyen in less than three weeks. He only needs to buy 3 rating 6 lodge materials and spend 18 days setting it up. The rules are in SR3, pages 166-167.

Just buying 9000 nuyen of material is enough to get a Lodge Rating 18 (18 * 500=9000), you don't have to get 3 times the material for rating 6 lodges, as it costs the same.

You'd still need 18 days to set it up

Glad you agree. I wanted to break it down into standard starting limits for ratings on equipment. It also plainly explains why the character didn't need to roll an 18 on an Etiquette test to acquire the materials. Your example would have BitBasher calling for that TN 18 roll.

Just a quick clarification. The rules for upgrading equipment state that you use the availability and street index for the rating you want and you subtract the orginal cost paid. The availabilty of a force 18 shamic lodge is 18/24 hrs and cost 9000 :nuyen: . The same goes for elemental conjuring materials. You want a force 10 fire elemental? You pay 10000 :nuyen: and the availability is 10/24 hrs. You can't buy 10 units of force one materials to duck the harsh availabilty roll. Unless of course you are trying to summon 10 force one elementals.

Note: This is not my opinion. This was in response to my question at shadowrun info when I was playing a conjurer oh so many moons ago.

tisoz View Member Profile	Jul 9 2004, 03:22 AM Post #59
Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920	Sounds like a FAQ answer. I'm just going by the example on page 167 of the BBB.

xizor

Jul 9 2004, 03:45 AM

Post #60

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QUOTE

I assume, then, you have no objection when I pull out a handgun and inexplicably bypass your full body suit of FFBA or military armor?

my only objection would be geting shot. :grinbig:

Cain View Member Profile	Jul 9 2004, 03:47 AM Post #61
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178	You know, I almost forgot about this... The Armor spell is halved by APDS and AV ammo. Since he's running a merc campaign, anything autofire can get through.

Necro Tech

Jul 9 2004, 04:01 AM

Post #62

UMS O.G.

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QUOTE (tisoz)

Sounds like a FAQ answer.

I'm just going by the example on page 167 of the BBB.

It was. The example only mentions cost and thats why I asked. It seemed a glaring hole in the availability rules.

Sammiel

Jul 9 2004, 06:16 AM

Post #63

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QUOTE (ShadowGhost)

Only if your GM has is a retard with no absolutely no common sense.

The bypass Armor called shot is is vague, and should have been re-worded to say "bypass worn armor."

Otherwise I sink aircraft carriers with my 4L pistol, calling a shot to bypass armor.

If that's the kind of game you want to run, go right ahead.

I don't feel that those rules should work against the armor spell, or against a suit of security or military armor.

I have no compunctions using the rule as written against someone who cares little enough about my game to make a troll with a force 18 armor spell.

snowRaven

Jul 9 2004, 09:42 AM

Post #64

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QUOTE (Necro Tech)

QUOTE (tisoz)

Sounds like a FAQ answer.

I'm just going by the example on page 167 of the BBB.

It was. The example only mentions cost and thats why I asked. It seemed a glaring hole in the availability rules.

Note on pg.166 it does say that the shaman can gather the materials himself, and pay a flat rate of 500¥ per rating point for the search. No availability rules apply here, canon wise. It's up to the Gm to decide how long such a search takes, however., or any other details. For a rating 18 lodge, i'd use the exotic materials rules from enchanting I think.

But if he's buying the lodge, then the availability should be 18, even if he's upgrading from a rating 17 lodge. Even without the FAQ it's just common sense - otherwise, there's no need to have the varying availability on things with ratings.

Apathy

Jul 9 2004, 02:16 PM

Post #65

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QUOTE

Otherwise I sink aircraft carriers with my 4L pistol, calling a shot to bypass armor.

Actually, no. You can't even destroy my unarmored VW Beetle with a 4L pistol, because vehicles automatically reduce the damage level of weapons by 1. But you could destroy a tank with a 6M SMG or a 9MHeavy Pistol.

I agree that the rule sucks, and most GMs will house-rule around it. I was just pointing out that if you wanted to be a literal 'rules lawyer' the rules say that it works this way.

ShadowGhost

Jul 9 2004, 02:38 PM

Post #66

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QUOTE (Apathy)

QUOTE

Otherwise I sink aircraft carriers with my 4L pistol, calling a shot to bypass armor.

Actually, no. You can't even destroy my unarmored VW Beetle with a 4L pistol, because vehicles automatically reduce the damage level of weapons by 1. But you could destroy a tank with a 6M SMG or a 9MHeavy Pistol.

I agree that the rule sucks, and most GMs will house-rule around it. I was just pointing out that if you wanted to be a literal 'rules lawyer' the rules say that it works this way.

You have heard of staging?:D

I was being a smartass. To "bypass" something means to avoid it, or go around.

FFBA doesn't protect your face (it has a hood). Therefore, you can bypass it with a called shot to the face, *if* you can see it (i.e. sneaking up from behind - forget a face shot unless they turn around)

Military Armor is full body protection, meaning there's no holes or gaps in the armor to bypass.

Armor spell has no gaps in it, it creates a glowing field around the target of the spell. IMHO, this means you can't bypass it unless you have teleporting bullets.

There are several rules that if you follow 100% literally, make little or no sense. This is why the gamemakers themselves say if you don't like the rules, feel free to change or throw them out.

One case in point - I asked my GM if I could make a called shot to bypass armor AND stage damage DOWN one level, instead of bypass armor, or stage up as per normal rules, for the purposes of disarming an opponent (shooting a gun out of their hand).

It's not "canon" but it makes sense. If they're wearing FFBA and I want to shoot a gun out of their hand, bypassing armor is no longer an option, as FFBA includes gloves.

Apathy

Jul 9 2004, 02:55 PM

Post #67

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I'm not arguing with you. If you look at my prior post, I'm saying the same thing:

QUOTE

I think that the general consensus was that called shots shouldn't be able to bypass total coverage armor like the armor spell, but that a literal interpretation of the FAQ would allow it.

This whole issue's already been beaten to death in the Called Shots thread. Rather than hijack this thread, if we feel any need to discuss it any more we should go there.

Ignoring the debatable called shots, we've got the following options for bypassing/negating the armor spell:

crashes
falling
gas attacks
viral and bacterial attacks
sludge engulf (the toxic power)
air engulf (the air elemental power)
narcojets
DMSO rounds
the knockdown rules
critter/spirit powers like confusion, essence drain and fear
astral attacks

What have I left out?

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Jul 9 2004, 02:59 PM Post #68
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	SSMs. ;)

Apathy View Member Profile	Jul 9 2004, 03:00 PM Post #69
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046	SSM? What are those?

ShadowGhost

Jul 9 2004, 03:13 PM

Post #70

Moving Target

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Fire attacks that cook off ammo and explosives.

QUOTE

If ammo/grenades/explosives cook off, "A character wearing any such material will suffer damage as if he/she took a point blank weapon hit. Armor does not reduce this damage, but combat pool can be used to resist the damage.

Ignite - set clothing/armor/character on fire - 6M. 1/2 Impact does protect against this, but the power increases by +1 per turn.
Flamethrower and Fireball - even if the Troll completely negates any damage from the primary attack, the secondary effects can still still cook off ammo and explosives, again completely negating armor.

Flamethrowers - same effects

White Phosphorus grenades - ditto (and burns for 15 combat turns to boot, and has a 15M blast radius, and 14M base damage, against 1/2 impact (even with 25 Impact, they now only have 12 Impact to reduce power). Grenade Launcher with Smartlink 2 - TN to hit is 2s, and fire twice a turn until cremation is complete. :eek:

Incediary Grenades. ditto.

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Jul 9 2004, 03:14 PM Post #71
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	Surface to Surface Missiles. The aforementioned 120 Deadly + Lots Over-Damage.

Cain View Member Profile	Jul 9 2004, 06:55 PM Post #72
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178	Netguns. APDS/AV autofire. Naval Weaponry. Chunky Salsa.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jul 10 2004, 02:01 AM Post #73
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	A self-important human once said that a cigar is just a cigar. That may be true, but in the case of the SPNKR, what you've got is one majorly explosive cigar. ~J

Dice

Jul 11 2004, 10:06 PM

Post #74

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

A self-important human once said that a cigar is just a cigar. That may be true, but in the case of the SPNKR, what you've got is one majorly explosive cigar.

Are you thinking of Rudyard Kipling?

"A woman is just a woman, but a good cigar is a smoke".

Kagetenshi

Jul 11 2004, 10:34 PM

Post #75

Manus Celer Dei

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I misquoted.

QUOTE

A self-important human once said "… sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." This may be so, but in the case of the SPNKR you've got one majorly explosive cigar.

The self-important human was Sigmud Freud, explaining that his cigar smoking did not express an oral fixation and thus latent homosexuality, despite being clearly phallic.

~J

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