 Ultrasound vision and improved sense adept power |
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 Jul 16 2004, 08:12 AM
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#51
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 556 Joined: 28-May 04 From: Moorhead, MN, USA Member No.: 6,367  |
:rotfl:
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Jul 16 2004, 10:37 AM
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#52
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Some back of the napkin calculation says that sound goes about 300 meters a second (in air), this means that sonar would 'lag' 2 seconds at 300 meters, 1 second at 150 meters, and .5 seconds at 75 meters. So it's useful range is very limited, don't expect to detect incomming cars or anything. IIRC shotgun ranges top out at 100 meters, maybe using the range table for shotguns as a perception modifier for sonar? The speed of sounds in water is around 5 times as fast, which is one of the reasons that sonat works so well under water, much less lag. Your reception of sonar also depends on the percision and size of your receiver. Since the sound will be scattered and reflected a lot of the reflections will 'miss' you receiver if it 's not too big, this means that you will have a hard time figuring out very vurvy or angeled objects, you'll know something is there but nor it's exact shape or size. For stuff like 4 walls, ceiling, floor, etc it'll work quite well, since the shapes are very flat. Assuming a very large parallel computing array (like the brain), you can still generate very good real time data... O/c it will be greatly inferior to light based vision. If I were writing the rules i'd say something like +2 ts compared to normal vision with additional TN penalties based on range (starting at around 5-10 meters) Additional +1-2 TN for detecting 'soft' or heavily angeled or rounded targets (+1 for most people not waring 'hard' armor, +2 for 'spongy' type stuff or sound dampening materials). O/C ultarsounds sights will have the same problems with receptor size. On the plus side, if your whole team was using ultra sound, the receptors could probably be tied together b y computers and you'd get a much bigger 'synthetic' receptor (at least if your team was close together). |
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Jul 16 2004, 01:43 PM
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#53
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
JaronK jumped on my response to this, which is a shame because I wrote that first post to illicit an opportunity to say it. Ultrasonic pulses certainly enhance a sense meant to detect their echoes, and things that enhance a sense without being senses themselves are allowed. There has to be some other reason that it's invalid, since you can't just say "it's not a sense" anymore. You have to say why one way of enhancing a sense is more valid than another way. That's a blurry distinction, leaving plenty to GM opinion and whim. |
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Jul 16 2004, 03:51 PM
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#54
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
No, but the sense does naturally occur, making it fair game as an adept power.
I should hope so! When submerged and traveling at speed, that's the only way they can tell where they're going. Dolphins and whales can navigate an underwater obstacle course, regardless of lighting conditions; submarines don't even *have* any visual sensors other than the periscope! AFAIK, nowadays computers do help in the positioning and plotting of objects. However, the old fashioned sonar stations were run by guys with good ears and a slide rule. To a large extent, that's still true today.
Sorta. As others have pointed out, sound travels much better in water than air. I'd say that the effective range would be reduced, but it would work.
Underwater? Most definitely. In the open air? Well, bats manage the trick, so the answer would have to be a qualified yes.
Define "more accurate". I'm not trying to be obnoxious here, but IIRC it's not that simple. Active sonar does help clarify objects, but you don't have to be the one pinging to get the benefits of that. If you can find any other functional noise source, you can use that for echolocation as well. Passive sonar is basically just a set of very sensitive microphones, that trained sonarmen turn into 3-D maps. The frequency of the sound is irrelevant; in fact, sonar frequencies occur within the normal human range. Bats use high-frequency hearing and high-frequency screeches as their fixed sound source, but in theory you can do it with normal frequencies without a fixed sound source. |
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Jul 16 2004, 08:09 PM
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#55
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
But passive sonar is no longer ultrasound vision/echolocation. It's just directional hearing. So that's sort of a moot point.
The frequency actually is quite relevant. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to sound like an idiot and say I don't remember why, but there's a reason we don't use low frequency noise. |
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Jul 16 2004, 08:58 PM
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#56
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 476 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Fresno, CFS: taking out one durned furriner at a time. Member No.: 5,940 |
Higher frequency is faster IIRC. Therefore it might be too slow to create a real time visual interreptation. Basically in the time it takes for the noise to bounce off the object and make it's way to the reciever, the object might have moved and changed it's position.
Those that desire Ultrasound Vison for Adepts might make a better case by representing it as an expansion of the visual field of light then turning the adept into a bat or dolphin. Personally, I find it a bit... inhuman, to make an echolocation power. Fits more evenly with some of the more traditional themes of magic (exploring the edges of mankind's perception)... and stops turning Adepts into Ace Ventura. But then, true expansion of this power would lead to synesthesia... or an acid trip. |
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Jul 16 2004, 09:05 PM
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#57
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 173 Joined: 16-July 04 Member No.: 6,488 |
So High Frequency Hearing to hear sounds alien to humans is all right for an adept, but using High Frequency Hearing to create a visual image of one's immediate surroundings is crazy-talk and wholly unnatural? Okay.
To answer Ken Takai's original question, yes, ultrasonic vision is an acceptable sense for the Improved Sense adept power. It doesn't require a radio or other technological device (proven by the fact that it can be found in nature) and it's a cybernetic sensory enhancement. It meets all the requirements for the power and it's hardly game breaking on top of that. On the other hand, Recorders, Cameras, Eye Lasers, and Eye Guns are examples of cybernetic sensory mods that do not qualify. |
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Jul 16 2004, 09:09 PM
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#58
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Original poster: Don't listen to anyone that says yes or no. They are wrong, the only person that is right is your GM, it's up to him.
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Jul 16 2004, 09:12 PM
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#59
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
I have allowed Ultrasound Vision as an adept power in the past (although not with a reduced cost for also having High Frequency hearing). Cited exampled: Idoru, by William Gibson
Whether or not you get an essence reduction if you, as an adept, have the Improved Sense (High Frequency Hearing) power and then have Ultrasound vision installed is tricky. I allow it because it is implied the essence reduction is due to not having to install anything to augment the user's hearing when putting in Ultrasound Vision. |
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Jul 16 2004, 09:16 PM
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#60
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 173 Joined: 16-July 04 Member No.: 6,488 |
That's a moot point with the power. Improved Sense includes all the "levels" of a sense when purchased, and it has no bearing on any other senses you have regardless of any footnotes associated with its cybernetic equivalence. Whether you have High Frequency Hearing or not, Ultrasound Vision still costs 0.25 Power Points and it doesn't include High Frequency Hearing. They're wholly independent senses as far as the power is concerned.
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Jul 16 2004, 09:20 PM
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#61
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Okay, go back and /read/ my post. Essence cost reduction, if power, I said yes.
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Jul 16 2004, 09:25 PM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 173 Joined: 16-July 04 Member No.: 6,488 |
Read mine as well. Particularly the very first sentence. It's a moot point and I went on to explain why. There's nothing tricky about it despite your allowance to the contrary or not.
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Jul 16 2004, 09:38 PM
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#63
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
Its not a moot point at all to determine whether buying high frequency hearing alters the essence cost of the ultrasound vision cybereye accessory.
While you may or may not have understood that this was one of the things AH was talking about, you failed to articulate clearly in your post which of the *two* points AH made was the one you considered moot. |
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Jul 16 2004, 09:38 PM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 476 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Fresno, CFS: taking out one durned furriner at a time. Member No.: 5,940 |
Way to utilize the hyperbole. Smashing success. Here's a clue. High Frequency hearing can not create anything visual. Two different senses.
I do believe Bitbasher has the right of this. See his response.
Take a look at the Ultrasound Vison "sense." It's actually three different things rolled into one. Sensor: This would be the HF hearing. Emitter: Vocal manipulation to send out the requisite pulse. Processor: The thing that turns the sound into a visual output. Only one of those things is an actual "sense." And it's already included as the High Frequency Hearing sense. The rest are not senses.
Game breaking? No. Pushing the balances issues out of whack? Hell yes. Adepts have enough of their own unique advantages as it is. They do not need to plunder the few advantages of cyberware. It comes down to the fact I will not have fragging Ace Ventura at my table if I'm trying to play a serious game. It does not fit within the tone, nor theme, to have a runner making silly clicking sounds to get around. |
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Jul 16 2004, 09:41 PM
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#65
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 173 Joined: 16-July 04 Member No.: 6,488 |
Talk about hyperbole. In any case, that's your perogative. It has no bearing on the power or the fact that it qualifies for it, regardless of the technological requirements for all of the cybernetic senses the power can replicate. Nor does the power require any silly clicking sounds from the adept anymore than Low Light Vision requires them shining a flashlight.
No I didn't, because they were both moot. That's the point of the word "moot." Besides, after reading his post twice more, the only thing he's saying is 1) it could go either way and 2) he allows it. |
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Jul 16 2004, 09:44 PM
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#66
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
I have to totally agree with this. Ultrasound hearing does not give the ability to echolocate nor does it grant spatial recognition. It just lets you hear ultrasonics, not to emit them. That's a very good preakdown IMHO of the requirements. |
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Jul 16 2004, 09:48 PM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 173 Joined: 16-July 04 Member No.: 6,488 |
Fortunately the power isn't Ultrasound Hearing. It's Ultrasound Vision.
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Jul 16 2004, 09:49 PM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 476 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Fresno, CFS: taking out one durned furriner at a time. Member No.: 5,940 |
Except those that involve radio or simular technological phenomena. Such as the emitter required for Ultrasound Vision. |
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Jul 16 2004, 09:49 PM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 173 Joined: 16-July 04 Member No.: 6,488 |
I had no idea bats and whales have radios installed. Awesome.
What's next? You're going to dismiss Thermographic Vision, too, because the cybernetic version obviously includes a processor? How about Select Sound Filters? Balance Augmentation? Spatial Recognition? |
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Jul 16 2004, 09:51 PM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 476 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Fresno, CFS: taking out one durned furriner at a time. Member No.: 5,940 |
I had no idea bats and whales were a race of humans. |
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Jul 16 2004, 09:52 PM
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#71
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 173 Joined: 16-July 04 Member No.: 6,488 |
Neither are rattlesnakes, but you don't seem to have a problem with Thermographic Vision or Thermosense.
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Jul 16 2004, 09:52 PM
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#72
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Ultrasound vision is a misnomer, that's not what the cyberware does. The cyberware is not actual vision. It's a computer chip that decodes mapped ultrasound (audio) waves. Despite that's what the cyber is marketed at, that's actually not what it does. That part of it is entirely non biological. Even echolocation is not vision, bats do not actually see that way, they know where solid objects are based on sound, just like knowing how far away some is because they are talking and you hear them. The name of the cyber is very deceptive compared to what it does. Real echolocation as an adept power would work more like the heat sense bioware, know somehting is there and it's general location and distance. Very, very generic and horrible at anything other than short ranges.
I don't support thermosense, but metahumans in SR can have natural thermo, theres a precedent for it.
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Jul 16 2004, 09:52 PM
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#73
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 942 Joined: 13-May 04 Member No.: 6,323 |
I had no idea humans had thermo vision. So?
JaronK |
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Jul 16 2004, 09:57 PM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 476 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Fresno, CFS: taking out one durned furriner at a time. Member No.: 5,940 |
Well, enless yer going to support the Humanis, last I checked Trolls and Dwarves were humans too. They have Thermographic Vision. And we all have Thermosense. It's the reason why we bitch when it's 100 degrees outside. Improvement and refinement can lead to a viable sense. However, balance issues might make me say no as it's a cultural bioware and if it's not allowed for character creation, it shouldn't be allowed across the board. And a note on editing your posts. Dammit man, click the "Included edited on" box or make a note in the actual field when you do it. |
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Jul 16 2004, 10:05 PM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 173 Joined: 16-July 04 Member No.: 6,488 |
So, because trolls and dwarves are magical, it's okay for a non-human sense to be a human sense through magic. But it's not okay for a natural sense found in nature prior to the Awakening to be included with magic. Despite, yanno, it being found in nature.
And to edit without clicking the box again just to torque you off, trolls and dwarves aren't humans. They're metahumans. Likewise, not a single metahuman has Flare Compensation, Sound Dampening, or Low-Frequency Hearing. Yet those are all established powers. |
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