 Scuba gear, Damn inflation |
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 Jul 17 2004, 08:54 PM
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#26
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222  |
I have no idea what your problem is, but you should try to deal with it somewhere else than on Dumpshock. The price of gasoline per liter in Finland in 1994: 5.00 FIM The price of gasoline per liter in Finland in 2004: 1.10 EUR The price of milk per liter in Finland in 1994: 3.50 FIM The price of milk per liter in Finland in 2004: 0.50 EUR [Edit] The price of 1 SMS message in Finland in 1994: 2 FIM The price of 1 SMS message in Finland in 2004: 0.10 EUR The price of coffee per cup in Finland in 1994: 5 FIM The price of coffee per cup in Finland in 2004: 2 EUR [/Edit] Can you easily determine the rate of inflation in Finland based on that? Do you, in fact, have any fucking clue how consumer prices have changed in Finland in the last 10 years based on just that, without a conversion rate of FIM -> EUR? We don't have a conversion rate between US Dollars of 2004 and UCAS Dollars of 2064. We sure as hell don't have a conversion rate between US Dollars of 2004 and Nuyen of 2064, other than "assume about 1 nuyen per 1 RL USD if you can't think of anything else". If you wish, we can do a quick table of a few common SR items and compare how their relative prices have changed in 60 years. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Jul 17 2004, 09:07 PM |
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Jul 17 2004, 08:57 PM
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#27
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
I never named any names, but if you think that applied to you, then that's cool. :D
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Jul 17 2004, 09:06 PM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 173 Joined: 16-July 04 Member No.: 6,488 |
Did you say something? My last post was in response to Snow Fox.
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Jul 17 2004, 10:23 PM
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#29
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
My example on the revolver showed how the price has gone up on an item without any great change in technology and without it being a collectors' item.
In response to other posts, you've been very sarcastic to several people trying to explain the changes to you. For the most part everyone else has tried to be civil and keep their explanations logical and to the point, in the hopes it will suddenly become clear to you. If you don't like any of these, then just take it this way: The price is what it is because that's what's in the book. If you don't like it, don't use it. m'kay? |
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Jul 17 2004, 10:32 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 173 Joined: 16-July 04 Member No.: 6,488 |
Again, am I just not clear? I'm the one arguing that an increase in price is logical while simultaneously telling them that the increases in price in Shadowrun pale in comparison to those in the real world over the last 60 years, so they should be happy it's not even higher. Read the fourth post in the thread. You're arguing the same thing, but somehow you're seeing my argument as contrary.
They're the ones who are arguing that its not and that I'm an idiot for suggesting that it is. Coming up with silly arguments about how vehicles have changed in 60 years and movies now use computers for special effects. But its apparently crazy talk to point out that the same differences apply 60 years in the future. Oy. Whatever. |
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Jul 17 2004, 11:05 PM
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#31
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Are you ignoring everything I'm saying, then? Inflation has nothing to do with how one item has become 10 times more expensive relative to the price of another, related item. This is the main problem with ammo prices -- handguns cost about the same amount of nuyen in 2064 as they do cost USD in 2004, but ammunition costs easily 10 times more. Similarly, you can get a regulator for as many nuyen in 2064 as it would could USD in 2004, but a SCUBA tank costs over 10 times as much. That sort of thing has nothing to do with inflation. The "worth of money", as measure by Consumer Price Indices, does not come into play at any time because of two reasons, either of which would be sufficient on its own: 1) The currency has changed and we don't know the conversion rates 2) The prices of items relative to each other have changed massively without any reason This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Jul 17 2004, 11:09 PM |
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Jul 17 2004, 11:16 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 173 Joined: 16-July 04 Member No.: 6,488 |
Yes, I've been ignoring it because it does happen. In 1944 a pound of butter cost about $0.49. In 2004 a pound of butter costs about $5.00. That's a difference of just under 1,000%. However, in 1944 potatoes cost $0.25/lb. In 2004 potatoes cost $0.39/lb. That's a paultry 50% increase in price.
Those are both basic foodstuffs, yet the inflation of one over the other is vastly different. Need another example? In 1994 a brand new Toyota Camry cost about $15,000.00 and a gallon of gas was about a buck. In 2004 a brand new Toyota Camry cost about $16,000.00 and a gallon of gas set you back by two bucks. The vehicle had a price change of well under 10%. Gasoline (its "ammunition") had a price change of about 100%. And that's over just 10 years, let alone 60. Prices change, and they change drastically, as the years roll by. Sometimes there's a good reason, sometimes there isn't. This post has been edited by Necrotic Monkey: Jul 17 2004, 11:28 PM |
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Jul 17 2004, 11:24 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 8-June 03 Member No.: 4,696 |
I think part of the problem here is terminology; inflation is generally used to refer to the currency as a whole, not to individual items. IANAE.
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Jul 17 2004, 11:38 PM
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#34
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Not "generally used", that is the meaning of the word. Inflation = that particular currency buys less. Thus,
should be
at least for the purposes of this discussion. However, butter and potatoes are not related anywhere near as tightly as respirators and air tanks, or firearms and their ammunition. If you want to prove that
you should find examples of two goods which are only useful when used together and the prices of which have changed massively relative to each other. If you can, I'll be more prepared to accept that it might happen with SCUBA and tanks, or handguns and ammunition.
In this particular case, there is an immediately obvious reason: the scarcity of one particular resource. Yet another thing that has absolutely nothing to do with the relative price changes of SCUBA and tanks, or handguns and ammunition -- unless earth's base metal supply is running dangerously low... This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Jul 17 2004, 11:41 PM |
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Jul 17 2004, 11:59 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 173 Joined: 16-July 04 Member No.: 6,488 |
inflation, n. A persistent increase in the level of consumer prices OR a persistent decline in the purchasing power of money
It refers to both. But since you're going down the line of nitpicking such pathetically minor details, I'm sure you'll understand why I'll resume ignoring you throughout the rest of this thread. |
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Jul 18 2004, 12:12 AM
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#36
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Funny how you always do when I've got a point...
Indeed it does. This mainly because the two are the same thing. If consumer prices (an aggregate of prices of everything consumers buy) go up, that means the purchasing power of money (how much the consumers can buy per unit of currency) has gone down. When the price of one good goes up or down, that's not inflation. Oil prices going up is not inflation, although it might lead to it. The price of SCUBA air tanks or small arms ammunition going up is not inflation. Obviously you already ignored most of the message above, since you did not comment on the part where I told you why nothing presented thus far helps explain the price changes in 2004-2064 of SCUBA relative to air tanks or small arms relative to their ammunition. |
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Jul 18 2004, 02:14 AM
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#37
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
Where the hell are you shopping? I get pretty good prices on produce here, certainly compared to in the cities or New York where I used to live and potatoes are about $0.79/pound! Which is by the way a 300%+ increase. Not as bad as the others but... Children, play nice or I will launch into a detailed and deadly boring essay on inflation protected investments, annuities and various investment risks, inparticular inflation risks. Trust me kiddies I will do this. For those who don't know me, I'm a licenced securities broker and if need be I'll just start with the various SEC and NASD regs! |
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Jul 18 2004, 02:18 AM
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#38
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
EDIT: no longer relevant and I guess not funny anyway :P
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Jul 18 2004, 02:20 AM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 173 Joined: 16-July 04 Member No.: 6,488 |
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Jul 18 2004, 02:28 AM
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#40
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
I live outside Philly. pretty much the same are. I don't know what potatos went for in 1944 but I know what it is now. I bought osme thursday.
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Jul 18 2004, 02:35 AM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 173 Joined: 16-July 04 Member No.: 6,488 |
I do most of the shopping in my family as well. That doesn't change the prices in the region I was referencing. In all likelihood, the change in price in your local area was similar to those in that little area of New Jersey back between 2004 and 1944.
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Jul 18 2004, 03:20 AM
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#42
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Go right ahead, and throw in some stuff about investments across non-pegged currencies too. :D Maybe add a bit about how inflation will drive long term loan rates and stuff. A simple guide for those here not in financial services about inflation, interest rates, exchange rate fluctuations, and so on would be neat. at least if you already have one written... |
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Jul 18 2004, 05:51 AM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 942 Joined: 13-May 04 Member No.: 6,323 |
Actually that would be great. Also, if you want to throw in something about banking and how to avoid all those damn charges they sneak in...
JaronK |
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Jul 18 2004, 06:29 AM
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#44
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Senior GM Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12-April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442 |
Snow Fox, I'll second the motion that you talk about securities, regs, and inflation. You can be a master poster, the equivalent of Raygun and Ancient History. You can have your own web site for Shadowrun economics.
I tried to run a Shadowrun adventure (home made) once where the characters had to pose as brokers in a brokerage firm for a week. I handed out a 1-page description to the players of puts, calls, long, short, margin, margin call, dividends, indexes, mutual funds, index funds, etc. The run failed miserably, because of the way I did it. One of the players said "I had to work harder on this run than I do for school." This is not an offer to sell securities, nor a recommendation for any particular investment. No one should make investment decisions based on this posting alone. Nor should this be construed as tax advice. The opinions of the author and his guests can change at any time, without advance notice. If any court of law does decide that the author is liable for your losses, you agree by reading this that such liability shall be strictly limited by what you've paid for such advice. |
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Jul 18 2004, 08:56 AM
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#45
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I absolutely agree with the above 3 posters. There is pathetically little macroeconomical data and analysis on Shadowrun now. Things I would particularly like to see are the developments between different schools: whether the Keynesians survived [sic] the crossover into a world where megacorps have so much political power, which schools gained most in the economical turmoil, etc.
Other stuff I wouldn't mind knowing (or having someone decide for me) include the amount of influence the megacorps have in the daily operation of central banks, what the BoPs of the major economical powers look like, how hard have the currencies of North America and Europe been hit by the almost total lack of a transaction motive for holding cash, and if the strong nuyen should be seen as an indication that the Japanese have gotten over their hysterical approach to unemployment. |
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Jul 19 2004, 07:37 AM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 746 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 459 |
-- Here's a hint: the Shadowrun prices were effectively pulled from a hat in a lot of cases, with a nod towards game balance or relative pricing for similar items at the time. Inflation was not a serious factor in determining prices for Shadowrun because all new books use the original rulebook prices as guidelines, and most of those are identical or very similar to that from 1st edition.
-- This whole argument about inflation realy brings the point home that some people can't see the game reality for the trees and roll with the punches. I mean really now, this is a game world with elves and railguns and mad AIs -- but oh no, those expensive SCUBA tanks and heavy pistols totally blows my suspension of disbelief! :) |
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Jul 19 2004, 09:40 AM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 131 Joined: 1-April 02 From: Finland, Iisalmi Member No.: 2,497 |
Tzeentchs got it. If you dont like SCUBA gear prices, change it. You know, those gaming police have their hands full with all those D20 players that they dont have time to harass us SR players. ;)
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Jul 19 2004, 01:53 PM
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#48
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
actually, the expensive SCUBA tanks and heavy pistols are exactly what blows my suspension of disbelief, most of the time--or, similar details. Shadowrun is supposed to be cyberpunk + magic. the basis of cyberpunk is a gritty interpretation of the possible future. ergo, the cyberpunk part of Shadowrun should be, y'know, a possible future. the inclusion of magic is the very reason that the non-magical parts should be as realistic as possible--it makes the magic part more believable. to the human mind, it's easy to accept that if X is true, and Y is related to X, then Y is true, even if Y is illogical. if the cyberpunk X is as true as possible, then it makes it easier to accept the magical Y without breaking the suspension of disbelief.
incidentally, you're all insane except for Monkey. he's the only one that appears to know which side of the argument he's on--most of the rest of you have, at various times, agreed with his standpoint while trying to disagree with him. |
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Jul 19 2004, 01:58 PM
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#49
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I'm pretty sure I never agreed with his standpoint on this particular matter. ;)
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Jul 19 2004, 02:32 PM
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#50
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
well, i did say "most of the rest". though i admit, i may have been slightly off when i called Monkey not-insane.
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