[X] My Assistant

[BitBasher]

Actually IIRC boosted makes you jumpy exactly like wired and all other forms of technological reflex enhancement except for bioware.

[Cheesy Answer]

[BitBasher]

EDIT: I'm a moron. :oops:

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

I'd like a page reference to how Boosted doesn't affect people like Wired does in causing them to be overly excited to outside stimuli.

There's a reason the Reflext Trigger was invented. Or, so I thought. Boosted, being a crappy, poor man's Wired, doesn't strike me as being in any way advantageous to Wired in any manner. Especially in it conveying some magical ability to temper people to being overly jumpy and quick on the draw.

[Necrotic Monkey]

There is no page for that, because it does. Synaptic Accelerators or Kamikaze, on the other hand, do not since the penalty only applies to cybernetic implants. I personally think drugs should be included, but that's just me.

[Kagetenshi]

I agree that drugs should be included. The thing about Boosted is that, as a treatment, you can't trigger it. You don't have the option of using a reflex trigger, rather than getting it automatically.

~J

[Cursedsoul]

I think there was a discussion about this a month or so ago. It was about the extent that WR makes you jumpy.

You have to common sense this. Just because the book doesn't say I can't fly doesn't make it possible for mundanes.

Part of the discussion came to adjustment. You come out of surgery with a brand spankin' new WR/BR system. No matter which it is, you're going to be jumpy, nervous, etc, etc. Your body isn't acclimated to the changes yet. It'll take you a few weeks to adjust.

Its like the sleep cycle. You develop a routine. You can change it, but it takes time.

Boosted reflexes augments the body's natural reflexes. I swear I read something in one of these books giving a paragraph or so of explanation, but I could be confusing this with what was discussed. Either way it says natural, so the exact mechanics of it aren't really necessary for what we're talking about.

Wired Reflexes IMPLANTS THINGS. The body can't control what isn't natural. It can influence and adapt but it will never be good as natural. Take for example the modern day prosthetics. Say I lost my arm so now I have this artificial replacement. I can manipulate it for simple ranges of motion, but its not nearly as good as a real arm nor am I able to control it like one.

Thus, the WR will always be active and the body cannot control it. Whatever technology is used to connect it to your senses isn't something your brain can get control of. Without that reflex trigger all you can do is adjust to constantly wanting to draw your weapons and defend yourself. It'll take a while and a lot of willpower, but you can get used to it.

Boosted does the same thing only its homegrown. Your brain can learn to control it and adapting to life in the fast lane will be significantly easier.

Again, you can't turn it on or off, nor can you reduce the effective level of the boost but you're going to be in control of your reactions a lot more than WR. Once you're used to it and your senses are adapted to what's really a threat and what isn't you aren't going to be super hyperactive man. You're always going to be a bit jumpy, but its going to appear that you're just a jumpy person. To my understanding that's going to be pretty normal in the 2060's, definitely for "criminals in their element". It'd be expected I imagine.

With WR its not going to be natural. Its like cyberlimbs, spend enough time and something won't feel right. Your company has a decent shot at figuring out you've got a limb. WR will be harder to detect, but a sense of "this person's on edge, but a bit TOO on edge" may manifest itself.

Whether it matters or not probably depends on their own paranoia levels and the blood alcohol level. ;)

[Necrotic Monkey]

Tell yourself what you like, but the rules are quite explicit. Any cybernetic boost to Initiative gives you the jumpiness problem unless it expressly says otherwise. This includes Boosted Reflexes which makes no such statement. If Wired Reflexes without the Reflex Trigger were the only cybernetic implant to suffer this problem, then it would be a problem of Wired Reflexes not a blanket rule for all cybernetic Initiative boosts.

Synaptic Accelerators, being bioware, is immune to this effect as is all bioware unless it expressly says otherwise.

[Cursedsoul]

Can you point me to a page with that rule stated because otherwise its down to GM ruling.

And its not really cybernetic. WR is. BR is an electrochemical treatment to naturally augment the body's natural reflexes. Where's the cyber? hmm? Point it out to me and I'll buy it.

Its paid for with essence, but in all honesty it shouldn't be. The BBB is meant to be stand-alone. BR is really bioware, but bioware didn't exist in the BBB so its still cyberware.

Frankly, BR should be included in the M&M under bioware. It does what a synaptic accelerator does.

Now BR doesn't say WHAT is included in the electrochemical procedure. It probably stimulates an increase in the neural pathways. Its not artificial because if it were you could remove it. But no, its permanent.

And did you read the entire post? Did you interpret? I said you'd GET USED TO IT JUST LIKE WITH WIRED REFLEXES. Capped to get your attention. WR will seem artifical if you spend enough time with someone who has it active, just like a cyberlimb would. It'll be harder to detect and its not like you can say "oh he's got WR" more like what I said, "something doesn't feel right. He's just a bit too jumpy.

As used to it as you can get, your brain can never control it as well as with BR. You cannot adapt to it. You are stuck with it.

Its going to be harder to get adjusted to the WR because its not a constant thing like BR would be. WR would fire off whenever it gets triggered, which can be a door slamming, someone yelling, someone attaching two metal objects together that sound like a gun getting cocked, whatever your imagination can think of.

BR will be harder to adapt to INITIALLY because its 24/7. WR at least doesn't do that. People adapt quickly to new situations, its one of the few gifts we can all claim a part of. Being forced to live on the edge without an avenue of escape forces you to adapt to it quicker or die.

If you're a shadowrunner I think its safe to assume you made the leap unless you want to be otherwise.

So yeah, BR is basically bioware. Since its so cheap compared to a SA I can live with my GM being a dick and forcing me to not shoot someone opening their car door, and I can even live with it being called cyberware. Game balance kind of demands it, at least until its ascertained as to what it is exactly.

This is just what I think. It makes sense, just not in the senseless world of SR. Its pretty obvious that a lot of things in these rulebooks fell off and hit its head trying to slide down the logic pole, so discussion about it is quite easy.

[Necrotic Monkey]

Oy.

Man & Machine, p. 45, "Effects of Increased Reflexes." Easily found in the Index.

Despite your preference to call it bioware, Boosted Reflexes is clearly and without doubt labeled as cyberware. It is, in no way, bioware. Whether it should be or not is a moot point. It's cyberware and is prone to the jumpiness factor. It's always been an inferior choice over Wired Reflexes for that very reason, amongst others.

[BitBasher]

[Kagetenshi]

[TheScamp]

[BitBasher]

Holy crap, you're right! I thought Boosted showed up first in Shadowtech! My bad! :notworthy:

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

Holy crap, Batman! We're OT!

[BitBasher]

[Cursedsoul]

When are we NOT off-topic?

My problem with boosted reflexes being cyberware is you aren't replacing any of your meat bod with metal parts, gadgets, and assorted doohickeys.

The way it reads its certainly not cyberware. Change or expand the definition and I'll buy it because its like, the only piece of cyberware to not artificially replace something.

Oh and thanks for the rule check. I had a pretty strong feeling that what you were saying was in the rules somewhere, but I wasn't about to go check the books for something that honestly doesn't matter.

And can any of you explain to me why the jumpiness is a permanent issue for it? Like I keep saying it boosts the natural reflexes and its permanent. Your brain is forced to adapt to it and because its natural you can learn to control it a lot better. I'm not saying you aren't prone to jumpiness but I AM saying you're less likely to succumb to it.

Wired Reflexes fires off when you detect an offensive action of any kind. You tell me how easy it is to stop a machine from doing its job if its not already turned off. Its something you can learn to deal with, but never to the extent of Boosted. With boosted its less likely you're going to lose control after you'v had it for a while and you're certainly going to adapt to it PDQ because you have NO OTHER CHOICE. Given the option of death or adaptation, your body will go for survival ten times out of ten.

Its also going to appear a helluva lot more natural than wired EVER WILL. Wired will cause you to twitch every few seconds in kind of a spasm I imagine because its not constant as WR isn't boosting anything if you aren't in combat. Boosted will make you just appear constantly on edge and nervous. Who's going to suspect anything more than a case of paranoia? Certainly not going to alarm anyone out in public unless they themselves are paranoid and well that really doesn't matter now does it? :silly:

None of you are responding to this. Instead you're wrongfully assuming I'm saying the following: BOOSTED REFLEXES DOES NOT CAUSE TWITCHINESS. This is INCORRECT.

Instead I'm trying to say: BOOSTED REFLEXES DOES NOT CAUSE TWITCHINESS AS OFTEN AS WIRED REFLEXES NOR IS IT GOING TO APPEAR AS ARTIFICIAL AS WIRED REFLEXES BECAUSE ITS A CONSTANT STATE OF UNEASINESS UNLIKE THE SPURTS AND SPASMS OF WIRED REFLEXES.

Now by extention I'd also like to know the following: what, if any differences in TN would you apply? If you apply sense, you can learn to control it much better than the automation of the WR. It'll take time but it could be done.

Perhaps and edge? "Extreme Self Control" or something. 1 point for boosted, 2 points for WR. Do not apply the additional +1TN to all perception tests per extra initiative dice for determining character actions when resisting the effects of reflex enhancement.

2 points for WR because of what I've been yelling but also because you can negate the additional 1d6 initiative dice, whereas BR is only +2 max. Honestly, for replacing 5/6 of your being with METAL GOD DAMN PARTS shouldn't be as cheap as the replacing ~1/2 your being with electrochemical hooziwhatsits.

BR isn't really inferior to WR since you can also get the SA. Unless your GM has a serious stick up their ass, its compatible with BR.

So WR3 is 5 (egh) essence, +6R +3d6I
And BR3 + SA 2 = 2.8e, +2R, +4d6 I.

The max initiative you can roll with WR would be +24. With the SA and BR3 its 26.

Average rolls of 3 in init dice and its WR for +15 and BR+SA for 14.

No real difference in initiative unless you're a shitty roller like I tend to be, but it won't matter WHAT you have if you roll badly.

Cost wise its 290000 for BR + SA. 500000 for WR3.

So by itself BR is inferior stat wise, but a steal bonus wise as you can get more bang for your buck.

Its not munchkin if that's what you're thinking because if you're going for WR3 that's just "as bad" and someone who doesn't want to pay 5e but still wants Initiative up the wahzoo can go with what I suggested for a cheaper all around alternative.

No reflex trigger does kind of suck, but setting off every fragging alarm on the planet with that WR blows ass too.

No VCR? not really a problem because VCRs are so damned expensive anyways. No WR makes sense anyways because you'd probably explode from all the stress and its tremendously munchy.

Can't be removed? I don't think that matters. Who's going to remove their WR once its implanted? At least, not of their own willpower. I'm sure you can salvage some of the parts if you were into that sort of thing. ;)

[Cheesy Answer]

Thing is, nothing in the books mention anything about a person getting used to cybernetic reflex enhancements. You can say that that's how it works, and implement a house rule, but to use it to argue a canon point is just plain wrong.

[Necrotic Monkey]

[Zeel De Mort]

True. The flavour text for WR also mentions that "Users of wired reflexes tend to be twitchy, especially if they lack a reflex trigger". Whereas BR doesn't mention anything about it. They do both, of course, suffer the effects of the rules on p45 of M&M, but the flavour text does, very slightly, lead you to believe that WR is a bit more twitchy.

...and then there's MBW...

At level 4 it adds the most (cyber) dice to initiative out of the lot. So the guy with that is REALLY on edge, although that's pretty much the least of his worries I suppose.

[Cursedsoul]

If its not mention its not canon. :silly: Minor nitpick. You can't claim it is anymore than I can so take that. :P

We don't talk about MBW. :D

[TheScamp]

[Cheesy Answer]

[Necrotic Monkey]

[Fygg Nuuton]

also muscle replacement doesn't replace anything, if you read the text on it