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> Astral Perception
Luke Hardison
post Jul 21 2004, 02:04 AM
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Situation: A character is blinded, either by a flash grenade much too close, or snowblindness ... anything causing blindness for a few days. (partly as a plot hook). To protect the eyes and promote faster healing, she is wearing a thick blindfold. (think Neo in Matrix3 if you need a visual) That character is an adept with the Astral Perception ability.

Can the adept use Astral Perception while their eyes heal? I know the function of the eyes doesn't affect Astral Perception working, but I'm specifically talking about the cloth. The cloth is a solid surface, which would block light in the physical. I've always thought that Astral Perception would work through it, but it occurred to me that a complete eye covering like that might block the ability.

My GM decision is that the purpose of the blindfold is paramount; if it's applied involuntarily to blind the target, then it affects both senses. If it's applied voluntarily as protection or for a reason other than affecting sight, the user can see through it. LOS from the aura, which extends outside the blindfold?

Canon ideas or house rulings?
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Jason Farlander
post Jul 21 2004, 02:07 AM
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Astral perception has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with physical sight. A character with no eyes can see via astral perception. It is, as described in SR3, a purely psychic sense. The intent behind applying the blindfold is irrelevant - wearing a blindfold will in no way interfere with astral perception.
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BitBasher
post Jul 21 2004, 02:16 AM
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QUOTE (Jason Farlander)
Astral perception has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with physical sight. A character with no eyes can see via astral perception. It is, as described in SR3, a purely psychic sense. The intent behind applying the blindfold is irrelevant - wearing a blindfold will in no way interfere with astral perception.

I call bullshit on that interpretation. :D A blindfold definitely does stop astral sight, that's the entire point behind a magemask, whish is a totally mundane item that blocks astral LOS. That's it's entire purpose.


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ShadowGhost
post Jul 21 2004, 02:18 AM
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From the official FAQ at Shadowrunrpg.com:
QUOTE

The basic rule of thumb is this: if you can see through it in the physical world, then you can see through it on the astral plane. If you can't see through it physically, then you can't see through it astrally, either. The only real exceptions are astral barriers (and other astral things), which are at least partially opaque on the astral, but physically invisible.


So, no, you cannot see through the blindfold with astral perception if you cannot see through it with your own eyes.
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Jason Farlander
post Jul 21 2004, 02:23 AM
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Wrong. A magemask blocks physical LOS, and makes it more difficult to even begin to astrally percieve/project - requiring a willpower (10) test. Furthermore, it applies a +6 TN mod to any spellcasting attempt by pumping white noise into the mage's ears and prevents the caster from speaking (which hinders common geasa/centering skills).

Edit: as for the FAQ answer, I would say that for the exact same reason wearing a shroud does not prevent spell targeting via astral perception, a blindfold would not prevent astral perception - though holding it at arms length *would* hinder astral vision through it.

This post has been edited by Jason Farlander: Jul 21 2004, 02:25 AM
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Luke Hardison
post Jul 21 2004, 02:31 AM
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Actually, the magemask "completely cuts off" LOS and "astral projection" requires the Willpower (10) test. The text (MitS, p. 12) doesn't mention Astral Perception, but the phrase "completely cuts off line of sight" makes me think that the mask, and the blindfold by transference, would block Perception.

I hadn't thought about looking at the magemask to solve the problem, lol.

This post has been edited by Luke Hardison: Jul 21 2004, 02:35 AM
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Jason Farlander
post Jul 21 2004, 02:46 AM
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Alright, well, I doubt I'll be able to convince you otherwise with canon quotes. As Ive mentioned in the past, there are problems with the cut-and-dry rulings that tend to crop up in FAQ answers... but whatever. Ill just say that I've always been happy ruling as I described.

In your game, YMMV as they say.
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Glyph
post Jul 21 2004, 02:48 AM
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The FAQ needs to be taken in context. It does not apply to blindfolds; it is talking about the opacity of barriers such as walls, glass, etc. Actual, physical blindness does not prevent astral perception, so a mere blindfold certainly wouldn't.

If blocking physical LOS with a mask prevented astral perception and spell targetting, then the +6 TN penalty to spellcasting from the magemask would be redundant and unnecessary.
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Odin
post Jul 21 2004, 02:52 AM
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alright here I'll explain in laymens terms why the magemask has the functions it has so it'll be clear....

1. the blindfold blocks line of sight preventing any form of spellcasting using your eyes obviously.

2. the white noise generator disrupts the concentration of the awakened individual as both astral perception and projection require at least a few moments of concentration and are TOTALLY independant of the physical senses.

3.The gag whch is used to prevent both the somatic component and any sort of lingual centering.

oh by the way blindfolds do not block astral perception you people are just being silly.
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ShadowGhost
post Jul 21 2004, 02:54 AM
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QUOTE (Glyph)
The FAQ needs to be taken in context. It does not apply to blindfolds; it is talking about the opacity of barriers such as walls, glass, etc. Actual, physical blindness does not prevent astral perception, so a mere blindfold certainly wouldn't.

If blocking physical LOS with a mask prevented astral perception and spell targetting, then the +6 TN penalty to spellcasting from the magemask would be redundant and unnecessary.

Wrong again. Not all spells are LOS - Increase Reflexes, Increase Attribute, and various other health spells do not require LOS if you're casting them on yourself, nor do a host of other spells, when casting on yourself.

If you can't see through it on the physical, you can't see through it on the astral. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

That's why they call it a Blindfold... because it effectively renders you blind. Now if you want to ignore the FAQ and decide you can see through blindfolds, go right ahead.

You do not require eyes to astrally perceive, but you still have the same limitations as people who do have eyes.... namely if it can't be seen through on the physical plane, it can't be seen through on the astral plane.
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Necrotic Monkey
post Jul 21 2004, 02:56 AM
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QUOTE
That's why they call it a Blindfold... because it effectively renders you blind. Now if you want to ignore the FAQ and decide you can see through blindfolds, go right ahead.

And, once again, blindness doesn't stop Astral Perception. It's not Astral Sight; it doesn't use your eyes, it doesn't revolve around your eyes, and it has nothing to do with your eyes whatsoever. It's not even linked to your head. It's a full-body experience... you "see," "hear," and "feel" (words used simply because there's no other way to describe the sensation to us mere mortals) everything on the astral plane using a completely new psychic sense. A blindfold does nothing to stop it.
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Odin
post Jul 21 2004, 03:07 AM
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Well I think that covers it then unless anyone would care to dispute that with information that hasn't been presented?
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ShadowGhost
post Jul 21 2004, 03:16 AM
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QUOTE
And, once again, blindness doesn't stop Astral Perception.


Well, duh, why do think I said Astral Perception doesn't even require eyes? It is a psychic sense, but it's still visual in nature.

QUOTE
SR3, pg 171 "This allows you to SEE anything present in astral space. You can also SEE glowing auras surrounding living and magical things.


Nowhere under Magemask (MiTS, page 12) does it say that you can Astrally Perceive through a magamask, only that Astral PROJECTION requires a Willpower (10) test. In fact, they don't even mention Astral Perception period. And if a simple plastic hood wasn't enough to prevent Astral LOS for the purpose of spell targeting, then the +6 TN mod for spellcasting means dick as a force 4 Powerball could be cast with enough net successes to disintegrate said hood.


I'll stick with WizKids Official FAQ - if you can't see through it on the physical, you can't see through it on the astral. Thus, IMO, a blindfold works on the physical, and astral plane, as astral perception is still restricted from within the bounds of your body - i.e. you don't have astral eyes that float outside your body when you astrally perceive, bypassing blindfolds, magemasks etc.
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RedmondLarry
post Jul 21 2004, 03:19 AM
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I don't know of any text in the books that says Astral Perception works through a blindfold.

Without a passage in a book, I will run it a simple way -- it blocks Astral perception.
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Jason Farlander
post Jul 21 2004, 03:22 AM
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Gah... I really wanted to just back away from this, but I find this to be a decent point to make.

Lets assume we have a mage who was *born* without eyes. Hell, he doesnt even have eye SOCKETS, optic nerves, anything... just a flat layer of skin and bone where his eyes should have been. Some sort of freakish genetic anomaly. Can this freak astrally percieve? Yes.

Would putting a blindfold on this person prevent astral perception?
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Dax
post Jul 21 2004, 03:36 AM
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To back this statement up, on page 146 of the Call Free sourcebook, there is a Awakened Critter known as the Slime Mold. Which is just one huge pile of sludge. However it is awakened slude. It sees by Astral Perception.

It has no eyes, no visible head on its body to have "sight" from. So, does putting a blindfold on said creature stop it from Astrally Perceving?
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BitBasher
post Jul 21 2004, 03:40 AM
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QUOTE
it doesn't use your eyes, it doesn't revolve around your eyes, and it has nothing to do with your eyes whatsoever.
Is there a quote somewhere to back this up? It says you dont have to have to have eyes that are functional in the normal world to use astral perception, but is there anything that says your eyes can be missing and still have it function or is that just an assumption? Is there a canon example of an eyesless NPC that can percieve, or are they all just blind ones with eyes?

QUOTE
Lets assume we have a mage who was *born* without eyes. Hell, he doesnt even have eye SOCKETS, optic nerves, anything... just a flat layer of skin and bone where his eyes should have been. Some sort of freakish genetic anomaly. Can this freak astrally percieve? Yes.
I don't think there's a canon example to support this. I would believe this is an assumption.

As evidence, the magemask doesn't say it prevents physical LOS. It says it prevents LOS. It has no qualifiers to that term, it is absolute.

QUOTE
To back this statement up, on page 146 of the Call Free sourcebook, there is a Awakened Critter known as the Slime Mold. Which is just one huge pile of sludge. However it is awakened slude. It sees by Astral Perception.

It has no eyes, no visible head on its body to have "sight" from. So, does putting a blindfold on said creature stop it from Astrally Perceving?
There's no evidence how it works, because it obviously is not metahuman. If you put it in a sack then no, it should not be able to astrally percieve through it.
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ShadowGhost
post Jul 21 2004, 03:41 AM
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Yes, even without eyes (as I've said twice), you can have astral perception. Mages with Cyber vision still have astral perception.

Mages with their eyes ripped out of their head and still bleeding from the empty sockets still have astral perception.



Since you can cast spells at targets you see with astral perception with no TN penalties, a magemask ("a plastic hood" MiTS, page 12) that didn't block astral perception would be useless. Since a magemask blocks LOS, it has to work on the astral as well, otherwise you could just use astral perception to target spells.

So yes, a blindfold still blocks astral perception.



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Odin
post Jul 21 2004, 03:42 AM
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all right look at it this way because the whole bodies integrity is essential to magic use the entire body is at play otherwise using your logic that astral perception can't see through a blinfold how would a mage with cyber eyes ever use astral perception you have the right to your opinion but that doesn't make sense.
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BitBasher
post Jul 21 2004, 03:43 AM
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QUOTE
Yes, even without eyes (as I've said twice), you can have astral perception. Mages with Cyber vision still have astral perception.
The eyes are paid for by essence and thereby count as natural for the purposes of performing magic through them, bad example.

QUOTE
Mages with their eyes ripped out of their head and still bleeding from the empty sockets still have astral perception.
Is there a quote somewhere to back that up?
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ShadowGhost
post Jul 21 2004, 03:46 AM
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pg 171 - "Astral Perception does not rely on physical vision in any way."
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Jason Farlander
post Jul 21 2004, 03:47 AM
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you mean, besides pg 171, SR3: "astral perception does not rely on physical vision in any way; it is a psychic sense" (emphasis mine)
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Odin
post Jul 21 2004, 03:50 AM
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perhaps we should just look at it this way note the name of the term astral perception it's not called astral sight and has no bearing on any visual organs as the blind have no trouble with this and it relies on all the mages magical sense so I'll retort the only way you could theoretically blindfold a mages astral perception would be with a full body cast by your logic
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Person 404
post Jul 21 2004, 03:53 AM
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So if I'm perceiving, I can stick my pinkie around a corner, and consider that line of sight to whatever's there?
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Odin
post Jul 21 2004, 04:01 AM
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no because your pinky isn't a significant portion of your body lets for arguments sake consider it 1/1000th of your total body so putting it around the corner would allow you to perceive 1/1000th of your regular astral perception in my opinion.
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