[X] My Assistant

[BitBasher]

[Necrotic Monkey]

So you're all saying that a blindfold over your eyes disables Astral Perception. That a blindfold "deafens" you on the astral plane. That a blindfold makes you unable to "feel" on the astral plane. Because that's exactly what you're saying here, because astral perception is not sight. It's a completely new and different sense that only uses expressions like "hear" "see" and "feel" as a descriptive term. You're not actually "hearing" the astral plane any more than you're "seeing" it or "feeling" it. You're perceiving it. Hence the term "astral perception."

It's a single sense all its own. It's not an extension of existing ones.

If you can find a single line of text in the book that specifically states that putting a blindfold on someone will disable astral perception, you'll have something to back your theory up. Until then, it doesn't.

[Jason Farlander]

I dont know about you, BB, but, to me, saying that astral perception somehow requires the eyes to be physically present would be, well, relying on physical vision in *some* way - your eyes being the sensory organs for... physical vision.

[Person 404]

On the other hand,

"Your astral form has normal human senses of sight and hearing.... These astral senses are all "psychic" in a sense; thus, blind magicians can see perfectly well on the astral." (SR3, 173).

Could go either way, especially with the handwavy "psychic" part, but I think that saying that astral perception is a sixth sense totally unrelated to the normal 5 senses isn't really borne out well by the text.

[Necrotic Monkey]

You're quoting from Astral Projection, not Astral Perception.

[Gigapulse]

Tought Desicion, Since astrally perceiving has nothing to to with sight I would say at first instance that the blindfold would not affect his perception through the astral space.
But look at the original Post, he says that the blindfold is very thick, so you could argue that it is like having the image of a solid(wall) object right in front of your eyes.
This leads me to another question. If you are astrally perceiving and you have a physical wall between you and your target, can you see the target through the image of the wall in the astral space? if you do, then the blindfold does nothing. If you don't see through then you could say that the blindfold block your sight. And that leads me to another issue.
If Astral perception has nothing to do with physical sight, then why do you forcibly have to perceive the astral through the physical position of you eyes. I could say that since it has nothing to do with your eyes or sight you are perceiving the astral, from all of you possible angles(directions?), directly to you essence.

Does that makes any sense?? English is not my home language, so I might be explaining my self wrongly.

Hope this help

-Gig

[Lord Ver'an]

The abovementioned quotes from the main book make me go with the "astral perception does not require eyes" arguement. As I have always understood it, the main difference between astral projection and perception was that when projecting, you leave your body. When you are astrally perceiving, you are basically in both worlds at once; you can sense and interact with both planes but are vulnerable to both and suffer limitations because you are not fully in one world or the other - as indicated by the modifiers to taking most actions.

My own (often faulty) logic aside, the ghoul rules also support the idea that impaired vision does not hinder astral perception. Pg. 33, SrComp"All ghouls suffer from a degree of physical blindness. However, their dual nature allows them to see perfectly well on the astral plane." This description does not indicate that these rules regarding perception are abnormal.

Although not directly referring to all characters, ghouls are metahumans and much closer to Joe/Jane magic user than the aforementioned pile of goo is.

[Necro Tech]

If you could see through a blind fold then you could see through anything. What is the difference between a 3 X 12 piece of cloth or a 3 X 12 piece of steel? While astrally perceiving I still have to stick my head around the corner with my orbital sockets oriented towards my target to see anything. Eyes or no eyes they are part of your body. The blindfold is not.

[Shev]

A blindfold would not hinder astral sight. Period.

I think the problem here is that some people think of astral perception as a kind of extension to the eyes, like thermographic vision. They imagine that being in a perceiving person's shoes would be like turning on night vision: suddenly, you see things that you couldn't before, but your method (and thus vantage point) of perception remains the same. However, this is simply not true for astral perception, for all the reasons listed above. It is not an extra "sight" centered around the eyes, and thus is not affected by them. This is why blind magicians can "see", with only a +2 modifier that applies to "seeing" object solely in the physical realm. (SRComp, p.19) Astral perception is sometimes called astral vision, but it is clearly defined as something beyond the ken of one simple sense.

As for mage masks, think about this: even if the mage could see in the astral, he could not target any mundanes, nor any non-projecting/perceiving magician. The point of the mage mask is to make concentration near impossible, and cut off LOS. While the book may not state that it only works for physical LOS, it never states that it works for both physical and astral either.

Of course, this is yet another interpretation of the rules. YMMV, as always.

EDIT: NT, you are making the the same assuption as everyone else here. You are assuming that the vantage point of the perception is through the eye area, when it isn't. It is not a sense based around a single organ, like sight is to eyes, or smell is to nose.

[Necro Tech]

Last time on this thread.

You are standing 2" from a wall and facing it with your normal sight. It is large and red and very solid. You shut your eyes (or rip them out you Oedipal freak) and astrally perceive. What do you see?

[Dax]

Also last time on this thread.

It does not change the fact, that it says in the Big Black Book, that Astral Perception has nothing to do with normal sight, in anyway, shape or form.

[Shev]

You see a wall. It blocks your astral vision.


However, if the wall had an opening from the neck down, you would see through that opening, even if you were standing up. Again, you are not using your eyes for this, nor is the perception even coming from that area.

[BitBasher]

[Cochise]

@ BitBasher:

Your answer is the "blind" flaw ... This flaw encompasses any form of physical blindness, including the one where the person is missing actual eyes ...
Magicians with that flaw can still astrally perceive ...

[Shev]

[Garland]

So you're saying that someone astrally perceiving can see out their ass with no problem, eh?

No thanks.

[Necrotic Monkey]

That's less absurd than the other argument that a blindfold deafens and numbs an astrally perceiving character. Or that cyberware (namely Independant Cybereyes) extend those same psychic senses. Or that being completely blind, complete with having your eyes plucked from your body, doesn't affect your ability to use astral perception, but -- for some reason -- placing a piece of cloth over your eyes does.

Of course he's not saying that at all. He's saying that, as a completely new and independant sense, astral perception doesn't rely on our own ability to see, hear, or feel. Anymore than being blinded makes us unable to taste.

[Arethusa]

So if I stand in front of a brick wall, which is both physically and astrally opaque, I can't see through it, but if I tie a brick wall to my face, I can see just fine on the astral?

[Necrotic Monkey]

Essentially, yes. Just like a brickwall will mute the sounds on the other side of it, but a brick in front of your eyes won't muffle anything. Or a brickwall will stop you from feeling a breeze from a fan on the other side, but a brick tied to your face won't stop you from feeling the breeze.

Again, it's a completely independant sense that only uses terms like "see" for lack of a better word.

[BitBasher]

So Necrotic, can you provide a book quote that astral perception replaces hearing and touch? I can provide a quote that says it does not replace hearing. It's below.

From multiple descriptions in the book astral perception is astral sight, auras have colors, he sees them, he does not taste or feel them. It just isn't related to physical vision in any way.

Can you provide an example of anything other than sight descriptive terms to describe astral perception? Hearing even works normally when astral, and remember:

[Necrotic Monkey]

Once again, that's astral projection, not perception. Hence the use of the words "your astral form."

SR3 p. 171, Astral Perception: "You can touch and interact with astral forms." Well, unless you put on a blindfold. :please:

Oh, and SR3 p. 171, Astral Perception: "...astral perception does not rely on physical vision in any way; it is a psychic sense."

Note the use of the word "sense." As opposed to "an extention of your natural senses." It is a completely seperate sense all its own and is unrelated to physical vision in any way, shape, or form.

[tjn]

If I may interject a point here... It's the same thing as clothing. Clothing does not hinder any perception on the astral plane, neither should a blindfold.

Well enless the blindfold is like three feet thick and extends past the individual's aura... but that would just be silly. :wobble:

[Dice]

Ok, how about this as a compromise that seems to cover both sides of the arguement without directly contradicting 'canon':

Each Astrally percieving creature has an'Astral Eye' that percieves from a species-specific area . For metahumans this 'Astral eye' percieves from roughly the Forehead of the metahuman. If the species is a blob of proplasm its Astral Eye 'floats' freely within it, so it can percieve in any direction it chooses (but can't do much from inside a sealed bucket)

As long as the Mage has an 'eye' sized area of his forehead uncovered he can percieve from it Astrally.

This would mean that a Magemask would still be effective, but a thin strip of cloth over the (real) eyes, or a band-aid over a forehead cut, or a hat (unless its pulled right down) wouldn't.

[BitBasher]

So, necrotic, just to be clear you're saying that when projecting your astral form has the normal senses of sight and hearing, but when perecieving you do not, you have no senses like normal sight and hearing despite actually being in your body?

so percieving is sensory wise completely different than your senses when projecting?

[Garland]

I run this basically like Dice said above. The physical eyes aren't important to astral perception, but their location is symbolically important in that astral perception emanates from it. Since a blindfold is physically opaque, it is also astrally opaque. A blindfolded astrally perceiving mage could theoretically "hear" an astral spirit talking to him, but not see it (to target it for sorcery or whatever).

Otherwise you have people seeing out of their ass, like I mentioned, or having eyes in the back of their head, and etc. and etc. If a mage wants that, they have to project and move their astral form around appropriately (or inappropriately, as the case may be).