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Necrotic Monkey

Jul 21 2004, 05:25 PM

Post #51

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QUOTE (BitBasher @ Jul 21 2004, 10:25 AM)

So, necrotic, just to be clear you're saying that when projecting your astral form has the normal senses of sight and hearing, but when perecieving you do not, you have no senses like normal sight and hearing despite actually being in your body?

No, I'm saying that your astral form has the ability to see and hear the physical world as well as the astral plane. That's why you can still see and hear the physical world even while projecting, albeit with the usual +2 TN penalty when appropriate. This is also why they specifically mention it as part of your astral form, because otherwise you'd only be able to perceive the astral plane -- which has no bearing on your physical ability to see or hear.

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Jul 21 2004, 05:31 PM Post #52
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	Quite a discussion. In my game, I would rule that the sense of astral perception sees from the surface of the aura. Therefore a thin blindfold would have no effect, since the aura would extend past it, but a bulky thick mask could block it. Basically, the same rationale for how a touch spell can work through armored clothing.

Necrotic Monkey View Member Profile	Jul 21 2004, 05:36 PM Post #53
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 173 Joined: 16-July 04 Member No.: 6,488	Why? Even a full suit of hardened milspec armor doesn't hide your aura.

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Jul 21 2004, 05:42 PM Post #54
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	Well now it's a question of how big is a Shadowrun aura?

tjn

Jul 21 2004, 05:45 PM

Post #55

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QUOTE (Garland @ Jul 21 2004, 12:10 PM)

The physical eyes aren't important to astral perception, but their location is symbolically important in that astral perception emanates from it.

That's more dependant upon the tradition of the mage in question. Hermetically, yes it might make sense but hermetic magic is but one interpretation; and according to how the Astral is presented in OOC and Game Information (IE the "reality" of the situation), eyes have jack squat to do with Astral Perception.

QUOTE

Since a blindfold is physically opaque, it is also astrally opaque.

So is clothing, but one can percieve living auras through them just fine.

QUOTE

A blindfolded astrally perceiving mage could theoretically "hear" an astral spirit talking to him, but not see it (to target it for sorcery or whatever).

Once again, Astral perception is not "seeing" or "hearing" anything, it's a completely seperate sense. It's akin to trying to describe what you see to a person that has been blind their entire life.

QUOTE

Otherwise you have people seeing out of their ass, like I mentioned, or having eyes in the back of their head, and etc. and etc. If a mage wants that, they have to project and move their astral form around appropriately (or inappropriately, as the case may be).

Once again, divorce the concept of "seeing" anything. There is no point of origin on an astral form because the astral form itself is the point of origin.

Garland View Member Profile	Jul 21 2004, 06:00 PM Post #56
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 30-January 04 Member No.: 6,043	Sorry, for astral perception, it makes sense that because the perceiving mage is still within his/her body and still interacting with the physical world, they are still bound to their analogous senses. I can see I would've saved myself a lot of trouble in this discussion had I simply replaced "seeing", "hearing" etc. with "sensing." I'll certainly agree that when an astral form is projecting, it's a whole new ball game. Maybe looking at dual-natured critters is another way to try and figure this out. If a barghest has its tail and hindquarters sticking around a corner, and you're around the corner, can it see you?

Herald of Verjig... Herald of Verjigorm View Member Profile	Jul 21 2004, 06:02 PM Post #57
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017	The barghest can already smell you and is only pointing its less deadly end at you for humiliation purposes before it howls you into a coma.

Garland View Member Profile	Jul 21 2004, 06:06 PM Post #58
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 30-January 04 Member No.: 6,043	For the purposes of this example, there's a sewage treatment facility upwind, you're downwind, and the barghest has a bad cold. Smart alec. :P Edit: spelling. This post has been edited by Garland: Jul 21 2004, 06:07 PM

Necrotic Monkey View Member Profile	Jul 21 2004, 06:13 PM Post #59
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 173 Joined: 16-July 04 Member No.: 6,488	My personal opinion is that no, he wouldn't be able to see around the corner with astral perception. Just because it's a psychic, independant sense, that doesn't mean it's not still a directional sense, at least for more beings if for no other reason than because its easier for us to comprehend it that way.

Garland View Member Profile	Jul 21 2004, 06:22 PM Post #60
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 30-January 04 Member No.: 6,043	So now it's directional. If you're hiding under a table and the barghest's head is above the table and the rest of its body is below, can it "sense" you with just its feet and torso in line-of-sight?

Necrotic Monkey View Member Profile	Jul 21 2004, 06:25 PM Post #61
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 173 Joined: 16-July 04 Member No.: 6,488	Yep, sure can. Just like anyone else could sense you on a successful Perception Test to defeat your Stealth (Hiding) Test. Why, you could even be facing the opposite direction and still succeed. Imagine that.

tjn

Jul 21 2004, 06:38 PM

Post #62

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QUOTE (Garland)

Sorry, for astral perception, it makes sense that because the perceiving mage is still within his/her body and still interacting with the physical world, they are still bound to their analogous senses.

What analogous senses are you refering to? It's a completely new sense and not analogous at all. A character astrally percieves with his eyes as much as he hears, touches, tastes or smells with his eyes.

QUOTE

I can see I would've saved myself a lot of trouble in this discussion had I simply replaced "seeing", "hearing" etc. with "sensing."

Quite likely.

QUOTE

I'll certainly agree that when an astral form is projecting, it's a whole new ball game.

If anything, the wonky thing is that when astrally projecting, astral perception duplicates hearing and vision (if only without the ability to read words).

QUOTE

Maybe looking at dual-natured critters is another way to try and figure this out. If a barghest has its tail and hindquarters sticking around a corner, and you're around the corner, can it see you?

Can it see the character? No. Can it perceive the fact that the character (who is not trying to hide) is around the corner with astral perception? In my opinion, yes, and until the barghest moves around the corner, both effectively have cover against each other. However whether Astral Perception is directional or not is not touched upon, and will require a judgement call on the part of the GM.

Garland View Member Profile	Jul 21 2004, 06:38 PM Post #63
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 30-January 04 Member No.: 6,043	Okay then. This is probably where we agree to disagree.

JaronK View Member Profile	Jul 21 2004, 06:58 PM Post #64
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 942 Joined: 13-May 04 Member No.: 6,323	Here's my own oppinion about it, though in the end this is just going to come down to each GM's personal idea. You see, using astral perception, from your eyes, and hear from your ears. The astral is a place of the mind... since the mind of the mage believes that vision comes from the eyes, he will see from there when he astrally percieves, and since the mind of the mage believes that hearing comes from ears, he'll hear from his ears. A very well trained mage might see from elsewhere, but that would require a great deal of work, perhaps even a metamagic technique. Now, auras "bleed through" objects, allowing those touch attacks. That doesn't mean you see from the edge of your aura though... you'd still see from where your eyes are. Thus, a blind fold wouldn't enable you to see, since it would be covering your eyes and is opaque to the physical world. This fits with the cannon idea that you can't see with a magemask on. However, if you were looking, astrally, at a mage that was covered up in mummy tape, you'd still see his aura bleeding through the tape. That doesn't mean the mage in mummy tape could see you, however. I would say that a mage who was blind since birth could see from a place other than his eyes... since he has never seen with them, his mind might allow him to see from another place in his astral aura. This might allow for the blind swordsman arctype... a blind adept wearing a blindfold that can see through the astral. In his case, his mind doesn't restrict his astral vision to his eyes, so he could effectively see out of his chin or whatever. I view it very much like the matrix... what you do in the astral is based on what your mind thinks is possible. You have to unlearn things like gravity and all that... where you see from is probably something most mages don't think to unlearn. I would say, however, that duel beings always have to see out their eyes in the astral, no matter what... since they exist on both planes, their physical bodies seem more attached to their astral ones, in some ways. JaronK

Apathy View Member Profile	Jul 21 2004, 07:12 PM Post #65
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046	I got lazy and haven't read the whole thread, so please forgive me if I'm going over ground someone else covered. 1. Barriers that block physical sight block astral sight. So if you face an opaque sheet of paper, you can't see what's on the other side of the paper, assuming it blocks your line of sight. 2. Astral vision isn't limited by your ability to physically see, but things that block physical visibility (obsticals, smoke, submerged under water, etc.) by getting between you and the target affect your astral perception as well. 3. Your aura extends several inches beyond your physical body. So the aura of your body can be seen even when it's physically tied up in a sack. This does not necessarily imply that you can see out of the sack (open to interpretation). 3. The crux of the question is, what 'sees' astrally? Is it a pin-point origin sense based on where your physical eyes are located on your body, or can you see from any part of your aura? If the answer is 'any part', then I should be able to astrally look around corners by sticking my finger around the corner and leaving the rest of my body hidden. I personally rule that astral perception uses the same general physical location on your body as normal vision (the center of your face, probably in the area on the forehead that the metaphysical types refer to as 'the third eye'). So if there's an obsticle between your 'third eye' and the target, you couldn't see it. Note that a GM might well rule that a 2 inch blindfold doesn't actually cover the third eye, but a sack would. If my aura extends 3 inches away from my body in all directions, does my astral sight come from the edge of my aura (i.e. 3 inches away from my meat bod) or from the meat bod itself? For game simplicity, I play it that I astrally percieve from the edge of my meat body, not from 3 inches past it. I can see valid arguments either way, though. Are these the only issues, or is there something I missed?

Cochise

Jul 21 2004, 07:31 PM

Post #66

Mr. Quote-function

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QUOTE (Necrotic Monkey)

Once again, that's astral projection, not perception. Hence the use of the words "your astral form."

Problem there: You already have an "astral form" when you start to perceive astrally. That astral form has different attributes than the one you have while astrally perceiving, but it's an astral form nontheless ...
That astral form has its own set of senses. Audio being the same as your physical sense (even while projecting). Touch being the physical sense plus an addition that informs you about interaction with astral objects (you lose he pyhsical part while projecting). Smell and Taste are unreferenced. And finally "sight" which is replaced by astral perception which is described in analogies to physical sight (otherwise we'd be unable to comprehend the concept) but exists simulataniously to physical sight (again only until you start projecting)

QUOTE

SR3 p. 171, Astral Perception: "You can touch and interact with astral forms." Well, unless you put on a blindfold. :please:

I guess that's the part where part of you misconception comes from. Activated astral perception "physically" manifest your astral form on the astral plane. Once there you have the ability of interacting with other astral forms that also includes an astral equivalent to the physical "touch" sense ...

QUOTE

Oh, and SR3 p. 171, Astral Perception: "...astral perception does not rely on physical vision in any way; it is a psychic sense."

Note the use of the word "sense." As opposed to "an extention of your natural senses." It is a completely seperate sense all its own and is unrelated to physical vision in any way, shape, or form.

This is true however and that's the part that creates the problem with the mage-mask / blindfold ...

I usually describe this as a problem of defining something as "part of the target" vs. "not part of the target".
First some facts (shortened, because I'm too lazy and too tired after work to search all relevant quotes from the core rules and MitS):

Any object living or non-living can be seen on the astral as a "faded", "greyish" reflection of itself. (should be p. 161 SR3)
The transparency of objects on the astral is not explicitly ruled on with the current SR rules. However there is one thing that suggest that all objects retain their normal transparency on the astral as well: Water as an transparent medium does not interfere with astral perception in any way (MitS, p. 82) *Lifeforms within the water however do*. The FAQ answer heads into the same direction by saying that as a rule of thumb any object retains the same transparency as on the physical plane
Any living being has an aura that surrounds the astral representation of its physical body (again p. 161) => There are two different entities envolved here:
1. The reflection of the physical body (including any clothes worn)
2. The aura
Obviously anything that can be considered part of the reflection, does not interfere with the visibilty of the aura, otherwise we'd have modifiers for astral perception on living beings who wear clothes and we'd have modifiers on spellcasting tests that use astral perception since clothes would create some sort of cover ... we don't have something like that. This usually leads to the interpretation that auras "radiate" through worn clothes. A concept that's understandable but bears problems of its own: If auras really radiated through clothes then why wouldn't they radiate through a "paper" wall made of tin foil that is in direct touch with a person while a mage is astrally perceiving on the other side of said wall. On the physical plane the tin foil is most definitely not transparent for human eyes => It appears that the aura actually surrounds not the pure felsh and blood body, but anything that can be considered "part" of it as well. This also explains why it's not possible to perceive the aura of the person behind the tin foil wall, since that wall cannot be considered part of the body that is surrounded by the body.
Once a character starts to astrally perceive, the reflection of his physical body gets an astral form as an overlay (more colored and vivid than an aura on its own, again p. 161 SR3), which uses the physical attributes, the normal physical senses plus the previously mentioned additions to said senses. The aura is unaffected by that change => it's still there and can still be assensed.
If a character starts to project, he separates his astral form from the pyhsical body, taking the aura with him. What stays back, is the reflection of the physical body (mixture from several rules on stral projection, assensing and background info)

Now where does astral perception fit into all that, you might ask !?
The above points have established that anything that can be considered as "part of the perceived entity" does not interfere with astral perception on the "being perceived". Now it's not too far of a stretch that the same is true in the perceiving direction, because that would perfectly fit into the analogy of vision and it would explain why walls and the like actually retain the same transparency as on the physical plane, since a wall usually cannot be considered as part of an entity called "perceiving mage" (or "projecting mage" for that matter).
Now the final remaining question is: How can a worn blindfold or a mage mask be considered "not part of that entity" while worn clothes are "part of it"?

The answer is: Individual decision, based on intent and situation.

Yes, I'm aware that pretty much sounds like arbitrariness of the rules, but I can assure you that this is exactly in line with how SR magic works:

When using an invisibilty spell on a charatcer do you require the person to be naked? If not then you consider the character's gear and clothes as "part of the target". In general all spells of SR appear to affect the whole body including worn gear / clothes. The only notable exception there is the shapechange spell that explicitly demands the target to be affected apart from worn clothes.
In contrast to that general rule the levitation spell can target the whole entity (including gear), but it can also target hand-held gear, otherwise the rules on levitating objects from a person including a resistance via strength would be necessary
The rules on spells say that you cannot target individual parts of a target (like cyberware)
The very same rules do however allow to use a spell like "cripple limb" to perform what the previously mentioned rules disallows, since a limb is an individual part of the whole entity ...

Conclusion: There is no true "wrong" or "right" on the issue whether or not a blindfold / mage mask can block astral perception, since both interpretations are just fine with the rules as written. The intend of a mage mask however clearly states that its designed to destroy LOS ... and LOS can be achived both physical sight and / or astral perception => A mage mask should block astral perception to fullfil its purpose.
A blindfold should do the same.
=> It's not so much a matter of "logic" only, but also a matter of more esoteric concepts like "intend" ...
And that's pretty much how I handle it ...

xizor View Member Profile	Jul 21 2004, 08:07 PM Post #67
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 160 Joined: 16-August 03 Member No.: 5,501	this is something that i don't think has been covered in any thread, that i think is very pertinent to this one, what is a mage mask made of? and could what it is made of possibly effect aseral perception? sorry to have interrupted your regularly scheduled argument

BitBasher

Jul 21 2004, 08:39 PM

Post #68

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QUOTE (xizor)

what is a mage mask made of?
and could what it is made of possibly effect aseral perception?

A mage mask is mundane normal material, the hood is opaque plastic IIRC.

Fygg Nuuton View Member Profile	Jul 21 2004, 08:43 PM Post #69
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 897 Joined: 26-February 02 From: TIME OUT Member No.: 1,989	its the loud random noises that make perceiving difficult, the hood cuts off physical LOS iirc

BitBasher

Jul 21 2004, 08:46 PM

Post #70

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QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton)

its the loud random noises that make perceiving difficult, the hood cuts off physical LOS iirc

Not to nitpick, but that's one of the points I keep saying and people keep ignoring. The hood cuts off "LOS" not "Physical LOS" It's is not qualified to only be physical. This is where one of my main points comes from.

Fygg Nuuton

Jul 21 2004, 08:48 PM

Post #71

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QUOTE (BitBasher)

QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton @ Jul 21 2004, 08:43 PM)

its the loud random noises that make perceiving difficult, the hood cuts off physical LOS iirc

Not to nitpick, but that's one of the points I keep saying and people keep ignoring. The hood cuts off "LOS" not "Physical LOS" It's is not qualified to only be physical. This is where one of my main points comes from.

i always thought the hood was opaque, simply because thats how id make it... ill have to read it again

tjn

Jul 21 2004, 08:50 PM

Post #72

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QUOTE (xizor)

this is something that i don't think has been covered in any thread, that i think is very pertinent to this one,

what is a mage mask made of?
and could what it is made of possibly effect aseral perception?

sorry to have interrupted your regularly scheduled argument

According to NAGNA, a magemask:

Cost 200
A simple plastic hood, easily fitted over a prisoner's head, the meagemask blocks vision, and is equipped with a gag-tube that can be shoved into the magician's mouth, allowing him o breathe but not speak. The nostrils are left uncovered for breathing as well. The mask is also equipped with a white-noise generator that can be cranked up to deliver as much as 90 DB to the wearer's ears. This serves as a major distraction for the victim.

As such it's a bit more then just a simple blindfold. Both remove LOS, but only one ruins the victim's concentration.

To me, as just turning on the ability to percieve astrally requires an action, and therefore some amount of focus, that 90 DB of white noise is enough to distract someone from astrally percieving.

A blindfold does nothing to stop the mage from focusing on his astral perception, whereas a magemask does.

Talk of intent and symbology are IC reasonings for what it does what it does and falls under the perview of traditions. Different traditions will view what happens differently, if a mage believes that without eyes he can not astrally perceive then that will be what happens. However the hermetics have already deduced that and any hermetic mage worth his salt isn't going to limit himself in such a way.

Cochise

Jul 21 2004, 08:52 PM

Post #73

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QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton)

its the loud random noises that make perceiving difficult, the hood cuts off physical LOS iirc

It doesn't specifically say physical LOS ...

QUOTE (p. 12 MitS)

It consists of a plastic hood that fits over the prisoner's head, completely cutting off line of sight

Since line of sight can be achieved with physical eyes and astral perception and line of sight is "completely" cut off .. Draw your own conclusions ~shrugs~

BitBasher

Jul 21 2004, 09:00 PM

Post #74

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QUOTE (Cochise)

QUOTE (p. 12 MitS)

It consists of a plastic hood that fits over the prisoner's head, completely cutting off line of sight

Since line of sight can be achieved with physical eyes and astral perception and line of sight is "completely" cut off .. Draw your own conclusions ~shrugs~

That's pretty much the one I was going for.

Necrotic Monkey View Member Profile	Jul 21 2004, 09:42 PM Post #75
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 173 Joined: 16-July 04 Member No.: 6,488	You can use astral perception regardless of how you're blinded. Your eyes can be plucked from their sockets (which, by the way, doesn't qualify for the Blind flaw since that can easily be repaired with cybernetics). Your optic nerves could be completely destroyed (ditto). You could have been born with the portion of your brain that uses sight never developed or otherwise suffered traumatic brain damage that caused it to die (hey, we have a winner for the Blind flaw). You could have been in a tragic metal forging accident that left a blurb of steel molten and solidified in front of your eyes. And in all four cases, you can still use astral perception because -- pay attention, this is the important part -- astral perception doesn't rely on physical vision in any way whatsoever. The mage mask does nothing to prove otherwise. Line of sight and astral perception are two seperate entities within the context of the game. Need proof? Check out SR3 pp. 181-182 under "Spell Targeting." When describing line of sight, astral perception is never mentioned even when discussing the ways in which LOS can be modified. Later on they do talk about astral perception and even mention that the caster gets the best of both worlds; even if completely blinded on the physical world, he can still use astral perception to target opponents and, because he exists on both planes simultaneously, can still channel a spell into the physical world to bring a lot of hurt onto the target. And of course they never once mention line of sight when describing astral perception, because its an unrelated term in the game. But hey, if you want to limit astral perception by physical sight in your game, no one's stopping you. 'Course you'll have to come up with a whole new BS reason why Independant Cybereyes modifies a completely psychic and magical sense that is wholly unrelated to physical vision.

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