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> What are you favourite sneaky tactics against your, Evil GMs are Us
The Question Man
post Jul 22 2004, 09:53 PM
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A Hit Man with twin cyber guns loaded with Gamma-Scopolamine, Neuro Stun-X, etc… He was dressed as a bus boy. He sprays both the Troll Street Samurai and the Physical Adept from Hell. Draws Ruger Super Warhawk with EX Explosive rounds and empties it into Mr. Johnson/the Principle then leaves. I have never had a more frustrated group of players.

The Runners killed almost every Security Guard in the Corporate Facility and the Last Security Guard activates the Neuro Stun-X Gas through out the facility. Knocking every one unconscious. (They even new about it.) Very frustrating for the team Decker who hired another Shadowrunner team to Extract (Rescue) them. Minus their toys. 

The Runners gunned down a Security Guard Patrol. Then were surprised when the Security Emergency Response Team and alert Security Guards. They refused to surrender and finally went out in a blaze of glory.
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Luke Hardison
post Jul 22 2004, 10:19 PM
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My players were quite surprised when I got Cannon Companion an d my NPC's started to use searching and suppressive fire. It made standing up and wading through autofire much less of an option, and frusterated my munchkin to no end. He finally took a light wound from simple gangers because two had machine pistols; the face and shaman were smart enough to get down when the lead started flying.

I don't really think that's devious, just unexpected.

They can regularly expect to meet sec guards with tasers and Defiance T-250's with stun shells. SMG's with gel rounds are also common in the heavier defended areas. It's rare to find guards with specifically lethal gear, for reasons discussed in other threads.

For more advanced security, gas in corridors (neurostun or such), astral wards or FAB filled walls, and (this one is pretty new, as I just realized the value of them) guard dogs and paracritters.
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Zazen
post Jul 23 2004, 02:47 AM
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A couple times I had a tricky NPC throw fake grenades at the players. They deliver an electric shock to anyone who picks them up to try to throw them back. They used to always try to throw back grenades, now they're a little more discretionary.
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Cain
post Jul 23 2004, 03:09 AM
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For extreme situations: putting them up against clones of themselves, using similar tactics, usually fits the bill.
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BitBasher
post Jul 23 2004, 03:21 AM
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One of the few times I have had players get really pissed off and surprised was a run in which the Johnson had a clause in the run agreement thet the johnson was to be given everything they aquired during the run. They agreed. When the absolute hell whirlwind of death run was over, after they got karma the Johnson reveals himself to be a free spirit and asks them to prepare for the beginning of the (karma) donation ritual. They after all aquired it during the run. :vegm:

It was a Kodak Moment, the looks on their faces was priceless. :grinbig:
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Necro Tech
post Jul 23 2004, 04:09 AM
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I like throwing grenades a little short or just outside of cover. When the players run out to scoop it up, the guy with the delayed action shoots them.
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Odin
post Jul 23 2004, 04:23 AM
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QUOTE
One of the few times I have had players get really pissed off and surprised was a run in which the Johnson had a clause in the run agreement thet the johnson was to be given everything they aquired during the run. They agreed. When the absolute hell whirlwind of death run was over, after they got karma the Johnson reveals himself to be a free spirit and asks them to prepare for the beginning of the (karma) donation ritual. They after all aquired it during the run.

It was a Kodak Moment, the looks on their faces was priceless. 


I'm surprised none of your players didn't physically attack you after that one :rotfl:
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Necrotic Monkey
post Jul 23 2004, 04:35 AM
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I never get over how a purely thought-based game mechanic became an actual "thing" in the game that can be traded, sold, and purchased. Karma donations completely blow my suspension of disbelief during the game.

"Hey, I just donated to the poor." "Cool, now give me the karma you received for that donation." "What?"
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BitBasher
post Jul 23 2004, 05:50 AM
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Er then don't call it karma in first person, there's no reason to.
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Necrotic Monkey
post Jul 23 2004, 06:21 AM
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Then feel free to explain how you have a Johnson demanding you perform a magical ritual to feed it this imaginary construct called luck/lifeforce/experience/whatever they "acquired" on the run.
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nezumi
post Jul 23 2004, 01:20 PM
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QUOTE (Necrotic Monkey)
I never get over how a purely thought-based game mechanic became an actual "thing" in the game that can be traded, sold, and purchased. Karma donations completely blow my suspension of disbelief during the game.

"Hey, I just donated to the poor." "Cool, now give me the karma you received for that donation." "What?"

I don't know what you're talking about. I donated a box of old clothes to Goodwill last week and they gave me a receipt for 1 karma. Good deal!
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toturi
post Jul 23 2004, 01:27 PM
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QUOTE (BitBasher @ Jul 23 2004, 11:21 AM)
One of the few times I have had players get really pissed off and surprised was a run in which the Johnson had a clause in the run agreement thet the johnson was to be given everything they aquired during the run. They agreed. When the absolute hell whirlwind of death run was over, after they got karma the Johnson reveals himself to be a free spirit and asks them to prepare for the beginning of the (karma) donation ritual. They after all aquired it during the run. :vegm:

It was a Kodak Moment, the looks on their faces was priceless.  :grinbig:

So what else did the runners acquire on the run?

Did they get hit? Did they acquire wounds? Acquire new enemies? They must turn all those over to their Johnson too... :D :vegm:
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Abstruse
post Jul 23 2004, 08:12 PM
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A ganger loading Grandpa's old shotgun with slugs tends to ruin their days pretty well...my favorite was watching them scramble and waste the remaining actions in their round when a stun grenade was thrown into the room and a guy with an SMG was blocking the only exit. Ah, fun times...

The Abstruse One
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LaughingTiger
post Jul 23 2004, 08:27 PM
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QUOTE (BitBasher)
...after they got karma the Johnson reveals himself to be a free spirit and asks them to prepare for the beginning of the (karma) donation ritual. They after all aquired it during the run. :vegm:

It was a Kodak Moment, the looks on their faces was priceless. :grinbig:

Wow, that's devious. My other point was addressed by Necrotic Monkey.

I'd just say that if you were my gm at the beginning of the night, you weren't afterwards. Did you really screw your pc's out of everything they earned that night?
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UpSyndrome
post Jul 23 2004, 08:36 PM
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I nearly wiped out my players when they were tailing a mage and he had his force 6 air elemental manifest inside of the group's van and start breathing away. I had never used the noxious breath critter power before, and was startled by how effective it was. Needless to say I aborted my round-by-round tactics and just had it keep doing that.

Another fun surprise was the orc ganger with the human looking edge...When players are expecting a certain set of stats, small changes such as racial modifiers can catch them off guard.

I also like "wrong place at the wrong time" encounters. One time, the group was just coming up from the orc underground, where they had tracked down and killed the hidden life vessel of a free spirit that had been troubling them (the vessel was a poor housecat that they had to manabolt 5 or 6 times before it's regeneration finally gave out). Anyway, they pop out of the sewers and into the middle of a full blown turf-war, and each gang mistakes the runners as ringers brought in by the other gang to tip the scales.

Fun times.
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SirKodiak
post Jul 23 2004, 09:16 PM
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QUOTE
QUOTE
One of the few times I have had players get really pissed off and surprised was a run in which the Johnson had a clause in the run agreement thet the johnson was to be given everything they aquired during the run. They agreed. When the absolute hell whirlwind of death run was over, after they got karma the Johnson reveals himself to be a free spirit and asks them to prepare for the beginning of the (karma) donation ritual. They after all aquired it during the run. :vegm:

It was a Kodak Moment, the looks on their faces was priceless.  :grinbig:



So what else did the runners acquire on the run?

Did they get hit? Did they acquire wounds? Acquire new enemies? They must turn all those over to their Johnson too... :D :vegm:


If karma counts as a possession, then so do the memories accumulated during the run. Clearly the spirit will have to read everyone's minds to acquire those, otherwise they'll be in breech of contract.

Anyways, the rules clearly state that "Karma is awarded at the end of the adventure" [Core Rules, page 242]. If their contract hasn't been fulfilled, then the adventure shouldn't be over, so they haven't accumulated any Karma to hand over.

In addition, the spirit has no way to determine what Karma, if any, the characters possess. It isn't listed as being visible under astral perception, so the characters could easily claim they don't have any. It isn't even clear if the characters know they have any Karma either.

And that assumes that Karma is anything more than a game construct, instead of being like Combat Pool or breaking up contacts into levels. The spirit has about as much business asking for Karma as it does asking for the dice the players roll.
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BitBasher
post Jul 23 2004, 09:52 PM
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Rationalizing does no good when there's an entire mechanic in the game devoted specifically to donating good karma to spirits. Rationalize all you want, it still happens. Any character with a skill in magical background at least has an idea how that works. The adventure was over they got paid (an assload) of cash. Metagaming and rules lawyering will not resolve the issue.

I only did that once to my players, and they were quite annoyed with it but at teh same time were a little impressed because it hadn't ever even been considered by them, and that's hard to do. In fact, they still get bitter about it if it's brought up today. :D

Yes, they had to donate their karma, but they were well financially reimbursed for it. In a game where the aberage pay was 15-25k each they made over 100k each.

That actually stopped them from kicking my ass. And started them doing more research on their Johnsons. :D

The rigger had no real complaints at all.

Sometomes IC, shit just happens whether you like it or not.
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Necrotic Monkey
post Jul 23 2004, 09:57 PM
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QUOTE (BitBasher @ Jul 23 2004, 03:52 PM)
Rationalizing does no good when there's an entire mechanic in the game devoted specifically to donating good karma to spirits. Rationalize all you want, it still happens. Any character with a skill in magical background at least has an idea how that works. The adventure was over they got paid (an assload) of cash. Metagaming and rules lawyering will not resolve the issue.

Fascinating paragraph considering you just used metagaming and rules lawyering to excuse the trading of a purely metagaming construct. Especially since wounds, enemies, and memories are all way more tangible commodities than karma.
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BitBasher
post Jul 23 2004, 10:06 PM
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There are rules for doing it in game. Not house rules, I used what the book offered me.
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Necrotic Monkey
post Jul 23 2004, 10:09 PM
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I'm aware of that.

However, you (contextually) claimed that it would be easy to rationalize it away by calling it something else, and I was hoping you could enlighten me to a more plausible scenario that would explain it as it occured in your example. Because otherwise it's a prime example of metagaming rules lawyering in an actual game, which is even more odd since you just attempted to chastise everyone else for doing that by not wanting to metagame or rules lawyer (can you actually use that as a verb?).
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BitBasher
post Jul 23 2004, 10:12 PM
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A piece of your soul, the memory enegrams you aquired while doing the job. The memories then be came faded, like a dream, and felt empty and shallow as if a part of their life had been stolen from them. That's the general description if I remember it right, it was around 7 years ago. The "piece of your soul" came from the shaman, and the "memory enegrams" came from a hermetic trying to explain it to the other players.

Edit I can use a lot of things as a verb. :) Example: "It worked fine when it happened in my game but on a messageboard someone DocFunked all over it". ;)
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Necrotic Monkey
post Jul 23 2004, 10:14 PM
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How do you acquire more soul while on a run? And if their memories were sucked away, how do any of them remember it?

Edit: And I see. Even when I ask a straight question in a calm tone, I still get insults hurled at me by the very person who complains about the opposite behavior. So very fascinating.
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BitBasher
post Jul 23 2004, 10:15 PM
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Like I said, the soul part (as was the memory enegrams) was a PC trying to explain it to other PC's. And I never said their memories were sucked away. Sucked away is thematically different than I just described it.
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Necrotic Monkey
post Jul 23 2004, 10:19 PM
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The way the players rationalized it is meaningless. They were simply trying to cover your hoop for metagaming.

You receive Karma for playing your character well. How did the spirit rationalize acquiring that Karma? You receive Karma for making the GM chuckle. How did the spirit rationalize acquiring that Karma? You receive Karma for figuring out a clue. How did the spirit rationalize acquiring that Karma? You receive Karma for getting everyone else to play the game and really get into it. How did the spirit rationalize acquiring that Karma?

I can almost come up with a few decent reasons for why a free spirit could require karma in exchange for a service rendered. But requiring all karma you earn doing something? That just doesn't make any sense to me.

You also never answered toturi's question. Did the spirit also take all of their wounds? Their enemies? Everything else they acquired on the run? Why didn't it keep the money? Afterall, they acquired that for the run, too. And at least those things are tangible commodities.
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BitBasher
post Jul 23 2004, 10:27 PM
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QUOTE (Necrotic Monkey @ Jul 23 2004, 10:19 PM)
You receive Karma for playing your character well.  How did the spirit rationalize acquiring that Karma?  You receive Karma for making the GM chuckle.  How did the spirit rationalize acquiring that Karma?  You receive Karma for figuring out a clue.  How did the spirit rationalize acquiring that Karma?  You receive Karma for getting everyone else to play the game and really get into it.  How did the spirit rationalize acquiring that Karma?


The spirit doesn't rationalize Karma. The spirit may not even identify it as Karma. it's unlikey in fact that he does. All the spirit know is that by putting employess in life threatening situations that they gain something he can use to advance himself. In fact, by taking things from humans is the only way he can advance himself. It's entirely unnecessary for a spirit to even know what that is. All he has to know is the cause and effect necessary to get it. After all, that is the only way in the game that free spirits can raise force and gain spirit energy is by having others donate it Karma. That's absolutely necessary for a free spirit.

QUOTE
The way the players rationalized it is meaningless. They were simply trying to cover your hoop for metagaming following printed rules.
Better ;)
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