Unarmed Combat Idea... Options

[Greyfoxx]

As i watch UFC, it came to me that unarmed combat in SR tends to last in quite a short time. Its probably because of the fact(or so how i understand the rules) that one guy always has to get hit: whoever has the lower no. of success.

Isnt there any chance that the attacker can dodge a defender's counter attack? The only way you could be successful in melee combat is if you put all possible CP on your attack/counter. Therefore, i house ruled that an attacker gets to have a full defense option (except using only half your melee skill) against a counter attack, therefore, combat can be tactically managed through proper distribution of CP to either offense or defense. It also makes for some longer, more realistic melee fighting.

it goes like:

Player kicks thug, thug counter, tries to grab player's leg, player chooses to defend himself from the grab and pulls his leg out of thug's grasp.

basically, the only time someone really gets to hit somebody hard, is when CP is running dry. Meantime, while each fighter has CP to maneuver themselves, they manage to dodge out of most attacks. Also having high melee skill grants you much higher chance of not getting hit since you're not solely relying on your CP to maneuver yourself.

So, what do you guys think?

[Herald of Verjig...]

Full defense allows the defender to avoid injury without harming the attacker. It also allows the chance of a monowhip self slaughter.

[Greyfoxx]

yeah. but you could either choose to counter attack or go fulldefense. if two guys are at about the same melee skill, why would you go full defense and not counter attack instead. the bad part is it doesnt give much tactics when it comes to unarmed. you just roll lots of dice.

in standard rules, if i was the attacker, why wouldnt i use up all of my CP for the attack. im not gonna use it for anything else anyway. but with the option i presented, you can judge as to whether you'll use your CP to fully attack an enemy or save it just in case your attack fails.

my problem with the standard rule is basically, if the counter attack exceeds the attack, attacker gets hit, if not, the defender gets hit. As ive watched real pro fighters fight, when someone tries to pull off a counter attack against an opponent, the other guy at least tries to avoid it. not in SR. someone always has to get hit.

[hobgoblin]

well you could allow the looser of the opposed test to take a dodge test similar to when he is being shot at...

[Lilt]

Not all characters have unarmed combat 6. Some characters may only have the skill at 3 or so in-order to have a chance of defending themselves from the skill 6 bunnies.

Notice the fact that full defense has no limit on the number of combat pool that you can pump into the test. This means that for many characters who don't stand a chance at winning the melee engagement normally, they still have a chance to evade the attacker if they use a lot of pool in full defense. Even between characters of similar skill levels the character going full-defense can have a higher chance of evading.

Of course the disadvantage is not being able to hurt them like a counterattack could, but there comes a time when you're a non-melee-focused character and they are wearing mil-spec armor... :dead:

[Strobe]

And while you are defending remember that you can yell to your buddies for help.

-Strobe

[Greyfoxx]

its not the defender im worrying about. its all fine to me. the problem is with the attacker. its such a no brainer to strike someone without really planning on how much CP your gonna use. no tactics at all, unlike range combat. all you have to do is add all possible CP to the attack. It makes no sense not to add all CP because if you dont, the defender will just beat the number of dice you roll.

example. player attacks with skill 6 + 3 CP(he didnt use all possible CP). defender knows attacker used 9 total dice so defender will use skill 6 + 6 CP. more likely the defender wins and hits the attacker. attacker really has NO choice but to use all possible CP, which i think is really dumb fighting.

In the option i presented, even if the attacker uses 3 CP only, he gets to dodge any further successes of the defender using his half melee skill + CP, if he successfully dodge it using the skill only, he was then able to save some CP for further use. Makes you think whether you'll go all out or play it safe, at the same time dealing damage (or a chance to, at least). Its more realistic, IMO. It doesnt make it any harder for the defender not to get hit. it just makes it harder for both to hit each other especially when both are playing smart at managing CPs.

[Greyfoxx]

Think about it. if youre punching a troll, would you at least try to keep yourself braced and ready in case he tries to grab your arm or somethin. In SR, the attacker is COMPLETELY helpless against a counter attack. I mean, how do you explain this simple situation based on SR rules:

Guy1 attacks Guy2 with a jab. Guy2 counters the jab with a right hook. Guy1 dodges right hook from Guy2.

The fact that Guy1 wasnt able to hit Guy2 means that, in SR terms, Guy2 was successful in counterattacking. But you see how Guy1 was able to dodge the counter attack(which is more realistic)? Its not covered in the rules. if i was to follow it based on SR, Guy1 ought to get hit because Guy2 garnered more successes.

[Lilt]

Well: You can add combat pool to damage resistance tests if you so desire, that could be considered dodging or, at the very least, riding with the blow. I agree that against characters with high strength this becomes impractical.

To be honest I've not been in a real fight for many years (not since school). I have, howerver, seen numerous fights. It does not seem unlikely to me that if two people go at eachother with intent to do some damage (attack with counterattack) then at-least one of them will be hit, and probably both of them will recieve some form of blow. Even if they are not seriously hurt then that implies to me that some form of damage resistance test has been reached. If one of the two people is attempting to evade (what I read to be full defense) rather than fight back then it is less likely that either will be hurt.

IMHO it would be more realistic if both of the people were hurt unless they are using some form of martial art.

[Greyfoxx]

you have a point, lilt. In real life, though, rolling with the blow is more part of the skill than a person's body att., and that's what im trying to achieve, to make highly skilled fighters capable of dealing with opponents and being aggressive without getting hit themeselves.

If youve watched delaJoya box, you'd notice how well he's capable of hitting his opponents, at the same time dodging their blows.

You point out real people. Well with real people in SR terms having CP of probably 2-4, unarmed skill of 3, if one is intent on hurting the other guy, most likely he's rolling skill 3 +3 cp, leaving him with 1 CP left to dodge. if he fails the attack, he'd probably get hit. More chances of getting hurt when you are less skilled. Does that explain your point?

My problem lies with high level, strong melee specialists(they hit fast, hard, and difficult to soak). The fact that one of them ALWAYS has to get hit in an encounter means that whomever gets lucky to draw first blood, most likely would win. That same fact also makes combat between strong fighters extremely fast.

eg. Strongguy1 jabs Strongguy2. Strongguy 2 counter attacks jab with a right hook. Strongguy 2 has 2 more success over Strongguy1, dealing STR(S) damage Strongguy 1 is definitely screwed. and to think this was just the start of the match.

That's not the case with real life. Two high level fighters ought to have a hard time hitting each other, given each have incredible fighting abilities.

[Lilt]

I suppose it really just boils down to how you want melee combat to run in your game. Your system makes a high melee skill more valuable (getting to roll it 1.5 times if your opponent counterattacks). This makes a character with a good melee skill, especially adepts, almost completely untouchable in melee.

That is to say, untouchable until the other character's three Ares SynthCats and dikoted ally spirit join in. :silly: You'd be best shooting them at range with your AVS.

[Greyfoxx]

I dont think it makes an imbalanced game, though. It only makes melee specialists harder to hit IF YOU ENGAGE THEM IN MELEE, and same's with you if you yourself is a melee specialist.

So you want that brassknuckle bashing physad troll dead? Shoot em. Or maybe blast em with a Manaball. You can engage in melee, but it will take some time.

Hmmmm... ...now that im at it, i should think of a way to incorporate fatigue in prolonged combat.

[Lilt]

I don't think it does make melee specialists harder to hit if you engage them. It makes them nigh impossible to hit if they engage you though. You may throw all 4 of your skill in with 4 pool and roll 8 successes against the attacker's 6 but the attacker is still in no real danger even though you have counterattacked as well as you possibly can.

Essentially it draws a slightly larger distinction between skill ratings at melee combat and skill ratings with other skills such-as firearms. I do agree that sometimes you'll want fights between good melee fighters to take a long time, and your system allows that, it just makes melee specialists more powerful in-general.

[I am Jin]

I was of the impression that you aren't "attacking" a person in melee so much as choosing to "engage" them. Remember that melee is abstract: you are not "throwing an elbow" or "giving them a kick" you are just engaging them in melee combat which can turn into a complex series of maneuvers. Since this is the case, while you may be the first person to throw a punch, unless they are on full-defense they are going to be attacking you as well. They did this to simplify the combat which would otherwise take fooorrreeevvveeerrrr. As you pointed out in the beginning: real fights don't go "punch, counterattack, win!" It also makes perfectly good sense to me that someone with a melee combat skill of 6 is going to wipe the floor with someone who has a melee combat skill of 3. One of them is a martial arts master, the other one is somebody who practices from time to time. It's also not unbalancing because: "you see a black belt charging down the street at you!" "Um... okay... I blow his head off with my predator III."

[Talondel]

Foxx seems to be under the impression that all it takes it for someone to get hit in a melee, and they're automatically knocked out and the fight's over and they lose. If your fights tend to focus on very very high Strength (and low Impact, low Body) fighters, then I guess that's how things will go. Most of the time, though, people have a decent Body attribute, and at least a couple points of Impact armor. I guess they don't, in the games Foxx plays in.

In an average fight -- one that doesn't feature trolls with dikoted polearms against naked elf girls -- though, I don't really think that's the case. It takes a lot of successes to stage the damage up to Deadly (since it's a contested roll), and remember that Deadly is as high as Melee Damage can go. After that, you just start adding a +1 to the power for every two successes.

If someone holds onto a few CP for a soak bonus, they're normally gonna be allright; or, at least, they aren't going to keel over dead right then and there. Remember that there's a lot of stuff out there that adds to Impact rating and Body/Soak dice. Forearm guards, ceramic bone lacing (well, any bone lacing, actually), orthoskin... anyone that plans on getting into a lot of brawls can "stock up" on some impact-boosting stuff pretty easily (and that's not even mentioning Adepts and any of their tricks).

[DigitalMage]

Remember that melee combat in Shadowrun is abstract (as someone has already said), an attack isn't a single punch.

Therefore the opposed Unarmed Combat + CP rolls simulate a trading of blows:
E.g. Attacker lunges in with a punch, which teh defender parries and then counters with a jab, the attacker in turn, ducks out of the way of that and closes for a headbutt, but in this case the defender is more skilled and throws out a kick catching the attacker off guard and doing damage.

All of that example is accounted for by the opposed rolls.

And remember if the attacker loses the melee contest he can still add COmbat Pool to his damage resistance test, which in my mind reflects not so much getting out of the way, but trying to roll with the blow, turn so that a less vulnerable part of your body is hit, or even bringing armour into the way.

[Greyfoxx]