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> Hollowpoint explosive shells?, Book's blurb leads to a confused me.
Union Jane
post Jul 23 2004, 01:53 PM
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Scanning the blurb on the back of a roleplaying book in my FLGS, I read the following endorsement: "If a role playing game is a gun, then a monster book is the ammunition. If that's the case, then Tome of Horrors is a case of hollow point, explosive shells!"

I didn't think hollowpoints could be explosive. I mean, they're hollow, right? You can have hollowpoints, and you can have explosive, but you can't have both. Correct?

Of course, I know internal-combustion engines, and nothing about firearms, so I'm likely wrong. . . .
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FXcalibur
post Jul 23 2004, 02:01 PM
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Hollowpoints tend to fragment on impact (more than regular rounds at least, IIRC), which could be what they meant by 'explosive'.
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toturi
post Jul 23 2004, 02:02 PM
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Can a bullet actually be packed with explosives in the first place?
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Siege
post Jul 23 2004, 02:14 PM
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You're right - you can't get both.

A "hollow point" has just that, a hollow tip that is designed to fragment upon impact, basically delivering highly localized shrapnel to the target, thereby making a bigger mess of the target.

By comparison, an "explosive" bullet carries an explosive charge in the tip.

That being said, I'm trying to confirm my facts on the explosive bullet and find a diagram of both.

-Siege

Edit: Hollow point diagram

#1 is the hollow tip, giving the bullet it's name
#3 is the gunpowder used to propel the bullet
#4 is the brass casing containing all the ingredients
#5 is the primer used to ignire the gunpowder, kicking the whole thing off
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Arethusa
post Jul 23 2004, 02:24 PM
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Siege is correct.

Basically, the writers had no idea what they were talking about and crammed two deadly-soundin' gun words together. Hardly a first, much less a first around here.
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Siege
post Jul 23 2004, 02:40 PM
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Journal of Pathology, exploding bullets

While an interesting read all around, the paragraph dealing with this thread is found here:

QUOTE


True exploding bullets were first described over a century ago, and, though not actually in use at that time, were prohibited under the St. Petersburg Declaration of 1868, which states that explosive or inflammable projectiles, with a weight of less than 400 grams, should never be used in the time of war. Examples include the Russian 7.62mm x 54R machine gun ammunition with an internal charge of tetryl and phosphorus, and later handgun cartridges containing Pyrodex charges with or without mercury additives.[2] It should also be noted that individuals can easily obtain instructions for the creation of their own bullets. The most infamous use of such bullets was the attempted assassination of President Reagan in 1981 by John Hinckley, who used “Devastator” bullets (Bingham Limited, USA) composed of a lacquer-sealed aluminium tip with a lead azide centre designed to explode on impact. Though frequently referred to in works of fiction, they are rarely encountered in forensic practice, as sales have been restricted following the incident in 1981. Projectiles that have failed to detonate are also not as sensitive to movement and heat as mentioned in the article; the author refers to an article on this topic, but fails to acknowledge a follow-up letter correcting Knight’s original mistakes. [2,3] Burton has, unfortunately, reproduced these errors in his text. Additionally, unexploded bullets are safe on exposure to X-rays and ultrasound.[4] The quantity of explosive is small and, if it fails to detonate on high-velocity impact, is unlikely to explode during autopsy examination. We would indeed agree with the assertion that safety glasses be used during necropsy examination of ballistic victims, however, as Burton himself details within his own book, such eye protection should be routine practice regardless of the cause of death.[5]



-Siege
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mmu1
post Jul 23 2004, 03:21 PM
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It's not that you technically can't have hollow-point exploding bullets - hell, we're getting to the point where they can make personal weapons firing programmable delay, distance and proximity fused rounds, so this would be child's play - it's just that no one is going to bother, because it wouldn't make the explosive round do any more damage.
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Siege
post Jul 23 2004, 03:47 PM
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QUOTE (mmu1)
It's not that you technically can't have hollow-point exploding bullets - hell, we're getting to the point where they can make personal weapons firing programmable delay, distance and proximity fused rounds, so this would be child's play - it's just that no one is going to bother, because it wouldn't make the explosive round do any more damage.

Possible, but highly impractical and serving no useful purpose?

Ok, I'll give you that one.

-Siege
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RangerJoe
post Jul 23 2004, 03:51 PM
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>>>"The latest from Ares Arms--high explosive, frangible, hollow point, capsul, armor-piercing, stun rounds! Is your home safe? Now in a variety of designer colors..."<<<

Possible... and serving no useful purpose.
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Siege
post Jul 23 2004, 03:59 PM
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Heh. You always have the "well it could happen because of magic technological improvements".

Although I submit, based on today's standards, it doesn't exist and while it could be made to conform to both criteria, having both a hollow point and explosive properties, the performance of said round would be questionable at best.

<insert magical technology here>

Poof, in 2063 it works.

-Siege
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hyzmarca
post Jul 23 2004, 05:53 PM
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Hollowpoints are ideal for homemade explosive bullets simply because it is easier to fill in an existing cavity than it is to make a new one. But, they wouldn't technicaly be hollowpoints after the procudure.
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GrinderTheTroll
post Jul 23 2004, 05:58 PM
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QUOTE (Union Jane)
If that's the case, then Tome of Horrors is a case of hollow point, explosive shells!"


I think an impossible analogy fits the impossibility that is "The Tomb of Horrors".
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Herald of Verjig...
post Jul 23 2004, 09:54 PM
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No, new book.
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Nath
post Jul 23 2004, 10:49 PM
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So Tome of Horrors is a crate full of new creatures, all possibles, but serving no useful purposes ?
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John Campbell
post Jul 23 2004, 11:55 PM
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QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
I think an impossible analogy fits the impossibility that is "The Tomb of Horrors".

What's impossible about the Tomb of Horrors?
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Union Jane
post Jul 24 2004, 04:38 AM
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The Tomb of Horrors is a classic old-school game module. I believe the book I saw was the "Tome" of horrors, obviously a play on that previous work.

Anyway, I thought I'd have some fun with the kiddies on the D&D forums who not only hate things old-school but despise any system that isn't D20. I popped in with this remark about how hollowpoints can't also be explosive (based on what you folks told me in the above messages), and they became rather . . . bitter.

At any rate, thanks for the heads-up concerning ammo. I knew I could count on you. (For the most part I just lurk in these forums, but every so often it's fun to partake. And most of you are so kind. MOST of you, anyway . . .)

Cheers!
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Raygun
post Jul 24 2004, 03:43 PM
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Slight correction here...

Hollow point bullets are not designed to fragment (break apart), rather they are designed to expand (or "mushroom") through hydraulic action, creating a wound cavity that is up to about twice the diameter of the unexpanded bullet. Upon impact with a semi-liquid medium, the cavity in the nose of the bullet is filled with said medium. This creates pressure against the walls of the cavity, causing the bullet material around the cavity to fold out, increasing the bullet's diameter. A jacket around the bullet material controls the rate at which the bullet expands. Thicker jacket, slower rate of expansion.

The general idea is bigger hole, more tissue disruption, more bleeding. This action creates more surface area and thus more drag as the bullet passes through the target, allowing the bullet to expend more energy inside of the target while also reducing the chances of overpenetration.

Below are some links regarding hollowpoint ammunition. The first is a link the the patent for Winchester's "Black Talon" bullet, which was discontinued in the mid 90's because it sounded really scary and made some people cry. The second is test information regarding several .40 S&W hollowpoint bullet loads.

US 5208424
http://www.gun-tests.com/newspics/pdfs/1-4-40ammo.pdf

For the record, it should be possible to make an explosive hollowpoint bullet, but as has already been mentioned, there wouldn't be a lot of point in it as the principles involved are not compatible. One expands, the other fragments. There's not a lot of point in engineering a bullet to expand if it's just going to blow up anyway. The increase in effectiveness (if there were any) versus the increase in cost would also make such a bullet cost-restrictive. Hollow points bullets are good because they are effective as well as inexpensive to manufacture.
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kevyn668
post Jul 25 2004, 03:19 AM
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Heh.

What? You guys never saw Jaws II?
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Diesel
post Jul 25 2004, 03:52 AM
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QUOTE (Raygun @ Jul 24 2004, 07:43 AM)

The first is a link the the patent for Winchester's "Black Talon" bullet, which was discontinued in the mid 90's because it sounded really scary and made some people cry.



Before, or after being hit with said round?
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kevyn668
post Jul 25 2004, 03:57 AM
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Its all about the hydrokinetic effect. :)
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BitBasher
post Jul 25 2004, 04:15 AM
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<cough>busllhit</cough> ;)
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Arethusa
post Jul 25 2004, 04:22 AM
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Hydrostatic, silly. Why, everyone knows that.
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Siege
post Jul 25 2004, 05:49 AM
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The Black Talon was discontinued for civilian consumption, but I believe it's still available for LE purchase under the "Ranger" or "SXT" name.

The Talons got a bad rap for a variety of reasons - most of which claimed to have been debunked.

Raygun could shed more light on the specifics if you're curious.

-Siege

Edit: Intense ammo discussions for the more gun-minded
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jul 25 2004, 11:22 AM
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Siege: Unfortunately many there seem to believe in the "street stopper" bullshit. Reading through the articles here and the relevant articles in the Tactical Briefs here will probably tell you a lot more about what to look for in a 9mm round.

While there might be a lot of interesting discussion going on in such a forum, the sheer amount of "get really light really fast 1337 bullets cor-bon r0x0r!" messages really turns me off. Not to mention the "Hydrostatic Shock" messages...
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Kagetenshi
post Jul 25 2004, 12:20 PM
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If I hear one more person talk about a "double tap", I think I'm going to have to stab them. Honestly, is that the clueless buzzword for the gun aficionados or something?

~J
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