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> What ever happened.., Meta-plot Questions
de4dmeta1
post Jul 24 2004, 01:09 AM
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Ahoy. I was just reading through a few of my books, and I realized that a bunch of the more 'meta-plot-y' developments (the Renraku Arcology Shutdown for example) that I've been considering using at some point probably aren't around anymore, or the problems causing them have been solved, or whatever. So, I'd just like to know what ever happened to the following situations. Which books they were resolved in would be a major plus, as well as timeframe.

1. the Renraku Arcology Shutdown (fairly sure about this one, but don't know any specifics)

2. Bug City (Is the wall still up? Bugs gone? I'm in the dark here)

3. The Yucutan War

4. General Saito's Regime

Can anyone help me here?
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Kagetenshi
post Jul 24 2004, 01:18 AM
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QUOTE (de4dmeta1)
1. the Renraku Arcology Shutdown (fairly sure about this one, but don't know any specifics)

The arc starts getting cleared out in 2061, and is mostly recaptured by 2063.
[ Spoiler ]


QUOTE
2. Bug City (Is the wall still up? Bugs gone? I'm in the dark here)


Wall comes down in 2058. Bugs pretty much gone, as is magic in some chunks of the city.

QUOTE
3. The Yucutan War


Still going on, and not going too well for the Azzies.

QUOTE
4. General Saito's Regime


Interestingly enough, he's still holding on. Don't expect it to last.



~J
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shadd4d
post Jul 24 2004, 01:18 AM
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1) Deus is gone. See Threats2 and "The network". Essentially, he downloaded himself into people's brains in order to escape.

2) Bugs are supposedly gone. Ares sprayed Strain III over the entire city. See Threats, Target: UCAS, the history in SR3, and MitS.

3) Still going on. See YOTC to see how it's gone from bad to worse.

4) He's still in power. Another Threats2 entry.

That's the books you need to check.

Don
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Fresno Bob
post Jul 24 2004, 01:22 AM
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QUOTE
Interestingly enough, he's still holding on. Don't expect it to last.


It better not. I want my hometown back.
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de4dmeta1
post Jul 24 2004, 01:38 AM
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Thanks folks, it's appreciated. :grinbig:
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Jul 24 2004, 01:46 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE
4. General Saito's Regime


Interestingly enough, he's still holding on. Don't expect it to last.

...

I'm going to say the opposite. There's nothing going on that will suddenly shift the occupied populace's opinions enough to force him out.
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Kagetenshi
post Jul 24 2004, 01:57 AM
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He's torquing off a lot of people, and the PCC isn't that far away…

Besides, this can't be good PR for the new Emperor. Can't even control his own generals?

Edit: or his own minor officers, for that matter. Almost forgot that Saito wasn't a general 'till he proclaimed himself one. He has none of the savvy, intelligence, cunning, or even help that survival in his position requires.

~J
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Person 404
post Jul 24 2004, 06:01 AM
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Hmm. I thought there were some hints that he has plenty of the latter, even if none of it's obvious.
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Garland
post Jul 24 2004, 06:05 AM
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I dunno... aren't the more racist Japanacorps supposed to be backing him under the table?
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Kagetenshi
post Jul 24 2004, 02:13 PM
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His assistance: Humanis and their friends, Mitsuhama, Renraku, Shiawase.

His opposition: The PCC, Ares, Orkland and everyone meta-friendly in the area, probably the new Japanese emperor, and, IIRC, the Orange Queen.

The second to last is most important. If he (the emperor) consolidates power and really starts pushing, they're going to drop Saito faster than a pair of burning underpants.

~J
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Jul 24 2004, 05:30 PM
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That's a big if.
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Kanada Ten
post Jul 24 2004, 05:45 PM
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Protectorate General Saito isn't going anywhere, but he's a toast to all those who hope he dies quietly in his sleep.

The PPC has far too much on its plate already. The takeover of LA overextended their resources and pissed just about everyone, including LA, off. Their own people are unhappy about the merger and the acquisitions haven't paid off yet. Plus Aztlan hasn't dissolved as a threat, rather it's become a wounded animal more likely to strike with chemical weapons if provoked. Even the STC won't back the Pueblos if they move to attack Saito, and the Japanacorps don't really want LA barely enough to push war with the PPC.

Ares is a contender, but it cannot directly attack Saito unless attacked. At least three of the Corporate Court members (Aztechnology, Shiawase, Mitsuhama) have already recognized the California Protectorate as a legitimate government and by law Ares cannot aid in the over throw of said governments. Hell Novatech and Cross won't do anything to help Ares even against Saito, and I highly doubt Saeder-Krupp would do anything but abstain leaving only Waxing and Yamatetsu as allies of the corp. No way will Ares risk a direct fight... yet.

The Emperor, as said, is a great big fraggin' IF.
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tjn
post Jul 24 2004, 10:50 PM
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Saito also only has 25,000 troops to back him up. With no reinforcements to replace those that die. He may recieve tactical and logistical support under the table from the japanacorps, but out and out supplying troops wouldn't be anywhere near as deniable.

If he stayed in SF, he could reasonably hold on to it, but by trying to expand he's overextending and setting himself up for a fall.

As it stands, there's no one there to tip his house of cards over just yet.
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Kanada Ten
post Jul 24 2004, 11:11 PM
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I think he'll start integrating the Californian forces to supplement his own right quick. He's already got Sacramento in his pocket and there's nothing to stop him from using the rest of the Californian military to keep guard on the North and South while he presses East. 25,000 troops with the best equipment money can buy, compared to Ares with their 5,000...
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tjn
post Jul 24 2004, 11:52 PM
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He's the invader; why on earth would the CFS citizenship cooperate?

He just does not have the troops to occupy more then the isolated 'plexes of Sac and SF (leaving him cut off from quick reinforcement from the other 'plex). And Sac's only because they didn't put up a fight and are working on destablizing Saito's regime through underhanded tactics.
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Jul 25 2004, 02:46 AM
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Because some people like the Japanese there. Every occupied country has its collaborators.
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tjn
post Jul 25 2004, 03:54 AM
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Collaberation would only extend as far as SF.

Anyone who would have agreed with the japanese pov would have already moved there. Anyone who didn't agree with the japanese pov (and there is far more of these then CFS or YotC makes out), but were previous in SF, have been forcibly moved outside of it. Into the territory he's trying to expand into.

Still, whatever collaborators he may garner, is no where near the amount of troops needed to occupy that much high population density land area.

He has SF because of the "purification" process. He has Sac because the politicians rolled over rather then putting up any overt resistance.

Any other land grab is suicide. He just does not have the forces necessary to occupy. Attacking he can do fine. Take the land once the day is won? Hardly.

Saito is a paper tiger.
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Jul 25 2004, 04:42 AM
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Perhaps. Someone managed to convince me using the example of the U.S. occupation of Iraq.

Of course, he also relied on the size of the divisions being large enough that they'd have ~40,000 Marines, and not 25k.
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tjn
post Jul 25 2004, 04:59 AM
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Also remember the US only really has to occupy the areas around the Tigris and the Euphrates rivers. There's a lot of land in Iraq with absolutly jack for population density.
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mfb
post Jul 25 2004, 11:58 PM
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i've always assumed that Saito's been importing mercenaries to supplement his forces.
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Garland
post Jul 26 2004, 02:23 PM
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Or recruiting local racists.
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krishcane
post Jul 26 2004, 02:46 PM
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On the Iraq parallel.... California today has 34 million people, and Iraq has 22 million. If you cut out San Diego and Los Angeles to get down to the CFS size, you probably do get a similar population between the two.

However... the average income in CA today is around $35,000 a year. In Iraq, it's between $450 and $600. That makes a big difference in how many guns you can buy, how many mercs you can buy, etc. California residents would be in a much better position to fight back.

Also, if Saito has 25,000 troops or even 40,000 troops.... There are over 140,000 US troops in Iraq, plus around 30,000 more non-US troops. Coalition forces in Iraq have a massive technical and financial advantage over their enemies. And despite that, it would be a stretch to call the situation in Iraq "under control" of coalition forces.

--K.
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Garland
post Jul 26 2004, 02:59 PM
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Saito isn't causing chaos, he's bringing order, which is something the vast majority of the human population in CFS likes. The population is soft and used to the good life (such as it is in 2063) and has been under Japanese/corp supervision for quite a while. They may have a high income, but it's not being shunted to the insurgency trust fund, it's buying food, pricy condos, NERPS, p-sec's, etc. Saito's also got better PR, according to Threats2. It's very easy to just not do anything when the streets are safe, and it's only the metas that have any trouble.

The analogy with Iraq breaks down because the native insurgency isn't acting alone, it's supported by outside influences and presumably money and the local propaganda machines.
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tjn
post Jul 26 2004, 08:18 PM
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QUOTE (Garland)
Or recruiting local racists.

When our racist powers combine, I am Captain Bigot!...

Or not.

Rascism relys upon a fear of those different then oneself. Saito and the california racists do not share anything other then a hatred of metas; there's a lot more differences then there are common intrests. Least with the wierdo's they're our own wierdo's.

Also, consider the diversity that exists in California as it stands today. In my city there are distinct minorities of Black, Hispanic, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Hmong, SE Pacific Islanders, Indian, Pakastani, Arabic, Armenian, Greek, and a few other Eastern Europeans... but most of them seem to clump together with the basic definition of the white majority. That's to say, we're already diverse enough that people with horns wouldn't be as big of a deal as they make it out to be. There'd still be racism, but it would be utterly unlike the form of the Japanese xenophobic variety.

The core of the racist contingient in California would see Saito as a lapdog for the Corps. As racist as they are, they're also fairly anti-establishment.

Basically, the racists in California would be the first to volunteer to "defend their homes from the invading japanacorps and their lackey, Saito."

Honestly, I'm hoping Loose Alliances picks up on this.
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Garland
post Jul 26 2004, 08:30 PM
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If present day diversity justified a lack of racism, there'd be no racism in Seattle, either. That's one of the things, I think, we have to take at face value in SR.

Isn't Humanis just as strong in CFS as anywhere? I think they'd be just as bold, given that some of their goals are already accomplished in SF (metas herded into ghetto). And if Saito can accomplish that, why not help? If it's a contest between who they hate more, the corps or the metas, I think they'd pick the metas to hate on any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

And again, I reiterate, Saito is not just some loon with a private army (well, he is from our standpoint, but...). He's providing a valuable service by keeping the city crime-free. By providing order in a disastrously unstable world, he makes himself a legitimate authority. Contentment with security and complacency will keep the humans in line and maybe even recruit a few who want to do good by their community.
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