 What ever happened.., Meta-plot Questions |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
 Jul 26 2004, 08:35 PM
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#26
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Indeed. I don't think people really appreciated how many racists there could be in California until CFS--and even then it was generally pretty off-hand. But the central valley and many places further from the coastline get pretty damn racist. But Cali has a lot of racists (comes with having a lot of people). There are more KKK klansmen in SoCal than most deep south states. Plus the random coterie of assorted skinheads, Nazis, and racist pricks. |
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Jul 26 2004, 08:43 PM
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#27
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 476 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Fresno, CFS: taking out one durned furriner at a time. Member No.: 5,940 |
"He's invading our homes" would be all they care about. Order? Chaos? Neither would matter more then the fact that he's an outsider, trying to take over California.
Um, the whole of California is not representative of solely San Francisco. The rest of the CFS isn't anywhere near as lucky as your perception leads you to believe.
To the outside world, yes. To your average corper, Saito's the good guy. Anyone living in the path of his division is going to have another mind.
Living in a dictatorship, even while safe, is still going to cause CFS citizenship to revolt. We like our freedoms now. We'd feel even stronger about the idea after we've successfully held on to that freedom as an "independant" state. California Free State. You damn well better believe that's a point of pride and no slanty-eyed japanacorp lapdog is going to take that away from us.
The american government has five times the forces of Saito, occupying an area roughly twice the size of Saito, and where the American military is still having trouble, Saito's planning on expanding? wtf, mate? Those numbers don't add up. |
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Jul 26 2004, 09:04 PM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 476 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Fresno, CFS: taking out one durned furriner at a time. Member No.: 5,940 |
I didn't say lack of racism. Different form of racism. When a person lives next to the object of the racism, it takes a much different form then shipping them all off to Yomi Island.
Because any that would have been okay with Saito, would have already joined him in SF a decade earlier. The ones that are left behind either would be petty and jealous of Saito's success where they've failed, or hate him as much as the next stranger because he would not be viewed the same as Steve from down the road that we've known since we were both in not much more then swaddlin' clothes.
You would be wrong, because they can go shoot a freak any day of the week. The Corps take the food out of their mouths and force them to live in farming communities while the corpers are off living with no worries in that penthouse apartment with air conditioning and gold plated caviar.
Perhaps in SF, and I've made no claim that he couldn't hold onto SF. But out further?... Reaction's going to be much different. Again, let me reiterate, all of California is not SF.
Except for the fact he's displacing a legitimate authority that was there before he got there. The reaction would be something akin to "We got along just fine with out him before, we don't need no one to tell us what's best for us.
Bulldrek. Their community is being invaded by the japanacorps. Helping Saito is the last thing that would happen. Californians are rather rabid about their freedoms as it is, becoming an independant state and managing to survive would only increase that furvor. Living under a despot, no matter how "safe" would not be feasible. |
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Jul 26 2004, 09:20 PM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 30-January 04 Member No.: 6,043 |
I'll grant you that he is invading Sacramento. And that any further expansion is nonsense. I agreed with that already; I'm pointing out that he has ways of maintaining a subsistence-level police state with what he's got. Actually, I think there's a slight misunderstanding here. I'm not saying CFS is Saito's for the taking, so I don't care that SF isn't representative of the entire CFS. I'm just talking about what he's already got.
How is he invading SF? It's already a corp town. The corps and the Japanese have been there for years. He's just the new CO, basically. So he's taking a slightly more active hand; he's keeping the streets clean. That's even his message: "Sure, I'm not from here, but I love this country, and can't bear to leave it unprotected. With that in mind, I'm going to be making sure that no deviants will be polluting this fair city." |
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Jul 26 2004, 11:27 PM
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#30
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Their communities are already owned by the Japanacorps. They all work for the Japanacorps. They have not had freedom since declaring independence, nor have they yet combined forces to fight off the Japanacoprs in the 30 years of occupation. Saito walked into Sacramento to a fraggin' parade. No body cares because it doesn't change anything for them. Joining Saito is a steady job where you get to root out metahuman terrorists, like those that bombed your school. Saito cannot expand, I'll agree, but he can hold what he has pretty easily. Iraq is 433,400 square kilometers with a population of 22,219,289 persons with 170,000 troops. [0.39 troops per square kilometer and 0.00765 troops per person] Saito has This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: Jul 26 2004, 11:55 PM |
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Aug 15 2004, 05:23 PM
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#31
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Don't underestimate Saito, and also don't rush to stereotype him.
Saito is a rascist, no doubt. Not in the "metahumans must die for the metahuman conspiracy" type of rascist, but the far more complex and subtle rascist who sees the world as black and white, and categorizes trouble as coming from metahumans. Partially, he's right. Crime and instability did more commonly come from the metahuman enclaves, though not really because metahumans are bad people. You just have enclaves of unemployed, downtrodden, angry young metahumans who want to vent. Take a look at what is going on in areas of the Middle East from Islamabad to Najaf. Saito is also very sharp. He's not spewing racial hatred everywhere. In his words, he is preserving California and returning stability to an area that has the potential to completely break down in the absense of the Japanese troops. Which is also partially correct. There are many entities that would love to carve California up (Hestaby, the Tir, PCC, Aztlan, even various flavors of Californians) and the central Sacramento government is largely too weak to stop it from happening. And while Saito is, in fact, carving his own piece of California, he's ensuring the status quo. To the ordinary Joe Californian who lives in the Protectorate now (note that Joe Californian is likely human), life hasn't changed much. If anything, it's gotten a bit more stable and peaceful, because racial violence is less visible (Saito's moved it out of the spotlight) and Saito can actually back up his words with force if necessary, unlike the Sacramento government. And while Saito is absolutely tricky and slick, he does also believe what he preaches. He does love California, he'd gotten very comfortable there during his time as a Japanese peacekeeper. And he does actually feel as if he's protecting the Californian people. Take current-day events as an example again. The current presidential administration in America certainly has its detractors, but few will say that President Bush doesn't honestly think he's doing the right thing in Iraq. Also, Saito is not blind to the idea that Californians in the central valley would be opposed to a foreigner coming in and running the show. He's relying a great deal on proxies in the Sacramento area. Local figureheads he's swayed to be his voice there, who aren't Japanese. Local militias to enforce control, who aren't Japanese, but are Joe and Bob Smith from down the street. Some of them bristle at the idea that Saito is running the show up top, but they have more freedom to act and get things done than they have ever had, so it's hard to dispute that. Also, they know they'd have a rough time keeping out the other, far worse, power players on their own. Saito is bringing security, peace, and jobs to the local Californian population, and though more than a few people wonder what's really going on, and whether they like it, it's hard to argue when you're more likely to live to see tomorrow and more likely to have the money to put food on your table. The company that just built a plant in your town and is hiring might be owned by Mitsuhama through various shells and subsidiaries, but most people don't know that, or don't care. They just got a job, things are looking good. There's a serious power-play in California to be the person that seems like the "good guy." Saito and Hestaby are both fighting for that image, and both are enjoying success to good degrees with various groups of people. One advantage Saito enjoys there, though, is that while he's Japanese, he's not a gigantic, scaly lizard who could swallow you whole. :D |
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Aug 15 2004, 05:53 PM
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#32
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Oh yeah, the other important thing to note. Saito is certainly a bad cookie if you happen to be a metahuman, but the people acting behind the scene are worse. Groups like Alamos 20K and Human Nation are all sorts of involved in the behind-the-scenes parts of Saito's Protectorate. These guys have global reach and established bases of influence and power, and have a vested interest in seeing Saito's Protectorate survive and thrive. So while it may seem like Saito has an array of powerful enemies lined up against him, he's one canny human, and you've only got to break out your old copy of Threats to see some of the powerful allies he has also.
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Aug 16 2004, 12:54 AM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 476 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Fresno, CFS: taking out one durned furriner at a time. Member No.: 5,940 |
And don't give him more credit then he deserves either. His army is only 25,000 strong. With no replacements of any meaning coming any time soon. Saito may be a genius, but his army can't be everywhere at once. Saito just does not have the resources necessary to occupy what is stated in Canon, let alone advancing. Also, understand that Saito is an occupying force. Every person his army kills creates the next generation willing to rise up in arms against him.
Saito is not causing any "protection" or "safety" in the eyes of Joe CFS. CFS was putting around fine, if a bit wacky, on their own. Saito caused the war. Saito's forces killed people's brothers or uncles, or his friend's dad from down the street. They would still be here if not for Saito. And again there would not be any "racial violence." The racism inheirant to Central California is completely different from the xenophobic crap touted in canon. The metahumans would all be out in the farming communities, getting paid crappy wages by the agricorps, with crappy schools, in a complete crappy cycle. They would be doing the jobs the humans would not be willing to do and be kept far away from the higher class humans in the city who wouldn't go "south of shaw". "South of shaw" is a local term. Shaw avenue, in Fresno, is an economic dividing point. North of it you have your white, upper to middle class families. The further past Shaw, the more you get the lower class, and more racially diverse families. I have been lucky to have friends from all over, but there is a definate theme in most upper class Fresnans. They don't go south of shaw enless there's a special event in the downtown area, so by and large they don't meet the ethnic diversity, and in so doing there is no point of racial tension. That is the racism inheirant in Central California. They never meet yet they are always within 10 miles of each other. On paper most Californian's are fairly liberal, believing very strongly in racial equality. Just not in my neighborhood.
Be that as it may. He's still an outsider. He is not Californian. He can honestly believe that all he wants, but that won't change the perception of him as an invader trying to take over the CFS.
Joe CFS doesn't care what they say. The politico's are already corrupt due to the agricorps, and are weasels of the highest order. They only out for number one, and as soon as they feel they can get away with misappropriating funds and stealing back what power they can, they'll do it.
How in the Sam Hill do you figure that. Sac largely left them to their own devices, so long as the agricorps kept them fat and happy. What freedom do they gain? None, in fact any figurehead would likely to be lynched for trying to enforce some "furniner's" rules. He wouldn't sway jack. He's invading CFS with an army.
And CFS has been keeping them in check just fine and dandy without anyone's help for a quarter century. You are severely underestimating this point of pride. To Californians, he is exactly the same as those other power players. Outsiders and invaders. One doesn't defend from one invader by capitulating to another.
Where on earth do you get that drek? He's causing war and disrupting their way of life. He can't establish any form of peace with only 25,000 troops. It's just not feasible.
Actually it's really, really, really, really, easy to argue against it. Pride. The fact that CFS was doing just fine without him in the first place would engender a fierce independant pride. Everyone thought that CFS would fold meakly and return to the UCAS humbled and shamed. Californians proved them all wrong. That and families are more likely to see tommarrow without an invading and occupying force then with one.
What plants? There are no plants in which to build that would employ anyone on the scale needed to impact the job market in any significant way. Central California is farm country. The land is much too valuable as a resource to put anything that might damage the food production like heavy manufacturing. We get our energy from hydroelectric sources. The only plants that would go in, would be automated processing plants that would employ maybe 30 people.
And neither should win if the writers do their research. Both are durned furriner's. As much as Saito plays up the "I love California too" angle, the cynacism inheirant within the population will drown it out. He's a durned furriner who's invading our lands, trying to take away our CFS. We haven't fought off Tir Tarngire and kicked the entire UCAS to the curb just to be done in by a Jap with only 25,000 troops.
I absolutly abhor this idea that all the rascists seem to get along and sing kum-by-yah around a roasting Ork. They would not cooperate; it's only because the players reaction to the word "racism" that would put them together. It's a lot easier to hate a single group if you stereotype them into a single mass and gloss over their differences. And I'm not talking about Saito in that sentence. |
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Aug 16 2004, 01:02 AM
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#34
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Indeed. Group XYZ might love Saitoh for helping kill the metas, but group ZYX might hate him just as much as the metas 'cause he's one of those. You know, the ones without just the right ancestry.
~J |
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Aug 16 2004, 01:13 AM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,709 |
I normally don't harp on spelling, but... R-a-c-i-s-m. It's racism. Sorry, but I see it's spread to another person already, and it's driving me nuts :P
Anyway, the main thing that Saito probably has going for him is that there is just no unity or authority in the CFS to oppose him. He's got a strong base in San Francisco; it was already practically ruled by the Japanese, so the populace has probably adjusted fairly easily. Sure, the folks in Orkland or the Northern Crescent might band against him, but unless some fantastic leader comes along, they don't stand a chance. There's really no one anywhere with the authority or power to dislodge him. Maybe Tir Tairngire, if it was so inclined, but there's no reason to think that just yet. |
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Aug 16 2004, 01:26 AM
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#36
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Except by canon several groups are cooperating at a single agenda: They are trying to make an all Human Nation. They are banding together because they see the metahumans carving out little pieces of the world and want to make sure they have a vestige of all humans to fall back on. Are they cooperating around the world? No. Are they cooperating around all of California? No. Are the people that could have stopped Saito actually on his side and aiding him for their goal of an all human nation? Yes. |
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Aug 16 2004, 01:34 AM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 476 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Fresno, CFS: taking out one durned furriner at a time. Member No.: 5,940 |
Oh :P I gotta make sure I speel korrectlee five days of the weak. I get tired of it... I wanna live a little man, yer stiffling my creative talents!... Heh.
Well the disunity I feel would be one of Saito's main problems. He has San Fransico and wherever his army is currently at. If 1% of Fresno's population turned to guerrila tactics, that's 9,000 fiercely independant rebels he has to deal with. Sure, if he devoted all of his resources and marched most of his men down there to deal with it, he could. But what about the places he isn't at while he deals with the rebels? Sac and the politicians would start subverting, San Jose and Ares would expand their intrerests, Berzerkly and Orkland would go wild, and the pirates on the coast would plunder the Bay's shipping lanes like no tomarrow. None of these people are connected. As soon as Saito commits to dealing with one problem, the rest will go unchecked. |
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Aug 16 2004, 03:17 AM
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#38
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
And if 1% of Fresno's population turned paramilitary and join Saito, that's 9,000 men and women to counter balance the "terrorists" and you can bet the Japanacorps control well over 30% of the population through out the areas "controlled" by Saito. Even if we put the unemployment at 4% combined with the subversion of the Humanis leadership (not the grassroots, but they don't have to know what side their fighting on if they can be directed properly at Hestaby and "The Ares/Injun Invasion Force") means that Saito can control the area he currently holds. I expect as the regime grows in brutality as more people stretch the bonds, the tide will turn against the California Protectorate. But if he holds out long enough, Japan will have to do something to either support or "reclaim" their Marines. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Aug 16 2004, 04:27 AM
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#39
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Guests |
Or in a means to further enhance other meta-plotlines, have someone else do it.
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Aug 16 2004, 05:47 AM
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#40
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
I haven't read the whole post so please forgive me if I am wrong. But aren't people missing the fact that Santa Cruz is the smallest County in Califonia and has 80,000 people. Why do I bring this fact up? Because from my understanding there are at large a battalion of CFS rangers. Meaning that yes, within a year or two the CFS rangers could have trained an army large enough to over throw Saito.Or at least hold him back. And wile Ares can't over throw Saito, they can help the CFS..It is also a regonized nation, bu the UN,and CC.
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Aug 16 2004, 07:02 AM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 476 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Fresno, CFS: taking out one durned furriner at a time. Member No.: 5,940 |
Difference is that the rebels can fade into the population. That's the whole point of guerilla tactics. And I'd bet dollars to donuts that there'd be more that strike against Saito then there are those that would join Saito.
I can give you one solid reason why they would try to limit their support of Saito to deniable means: The Corp Court. Remember what happened to Aztech? The reasoning that some AAA's support Saito's invasion is going against the established logic of the setting. Corperations, by their own rules, have nothing to do with the formation of Nation States.
Maybe I need a map but how does one lead to the other?
Not under Yasuhito. Who appearently is immortal. |
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Aug 16 2004, 11:26 AM
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#42
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,759 Joined: 11-December 02 From: France Member No.: 3,723 |
No. The Azzie only had a problem with the Corporate Court when they started nationalizations. The megacorporations are perfectly free to support or even control governements. What the rule's basically saying is that there should always be a government 'between the corp and the land.' Eventually the Californian Protectorate might not be recognized by everybody (especially Japan), it's nonetheless an established government. When Saito reached Sacramento (which was done within the month of November 2061) the previous government stepped down and handed him full powers. Financial backing is fine then because it's only taxes afterall. The issue of military support is a lot less clear depending on what you look at. For instance the Tsimshian chapter of SoNA explain that Mitsuhama is going into trouble with the Corporate Court because of a direct military involvement. On he other hand, companies like Knight Errant or MET2000 make a living of such direct involvement. |
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Aug 16 2004, 11:28 AM
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#43
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Target Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 26-February 02 From: In the shadows of the SK Arcology Essen, ADL Member No.: 1,934 |
Change that to "all non-Yakuza crime". |
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Aug 16 2004, 02:24 PM
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#44
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Well, thing is, we're dealing with canon. It might not be 100% accurate to what exists in 2004 real life, but we're also not dealing with 2004 real life. We're dealing with 2063 Sixth World, which doesn't exist, and so the only real guideline for it is the canon. Saito didn't bring much war to California. There's been very little in regards to combat fatalities in the Protectorate. His forces didn't have to fight much, just continue (and expand) their peacekeeping duties. There aren't people dying left and right in the Protectorate. Hardly anyone even knows anyone who has died as a result of the shake-up, unless you're possibly a metahuman. But even metahumans aren't dying much; they are being shipped off to relocation centers. Occasionally there will be a (real) metahuman-led terrorist attack, but those are targetting Saito's forces, mostly, and the retaliation is hitting back against the metahuman communities. To Joe Californian, hardly anything is going on, except that Saito is giving press conferences. Japanese troops aren't rolling into Sacramento en masse. Saito is sending "advisors" over to Sacramento, and co-opting local strongmen in the area. He is also employing mercenary forces and recruiting non-Japanese locals as irregular military forces. He is technically in control of Sacramento, but that's mostly because there's no strong opposition to him there, not because he has armored Japanese standing on every corner. Yes, there are local Sacramento politicos trying to subvert him, but there are just as many willing to jump on the bandwagon, and Saito has some of the sharpest political minds on his payroll to anticipate this manuvering. He's a warrior, but he's also a master of spin. But yes, Saito will have a rough time if local opposition ever gets its act together. Unfortunately, most of them despise each other as much as Saito. If the local corps, the local government, the local xenophobes, and the Rangers ever solidified into a singular force, Saito would likely find the area too difficult to remain in control of. But that hasn't happened yet. The kind of revolutionary fervor that could make life really hard for Saito just hasn't materialized as of yet. There is a great deal of shadow-wrangling going on though, which is great business for shadowrunners. |
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Aug 17 2004, 04:18 AM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 194 Joined: 24-January 04 Member No.: 6,013 |
Ok, one thing that I think not alot of people are taking into account here, is exactly how racist California as a whole state is in Shadowrun. And I'm not just talking Central Valley here people. I happened to be lucky enough to get my mits on the California Free State Book, a bit back and on reading through it I came to the following conclusions.
The Northern Cressent is incredibly racist. But its fragmented. Various groups keep sniping at each other. From the human Native Californian's, the elven Blood Ravens, the Ork Red Eye Tribe, etc. But none of it is unified. Its all fragmented and helter skelter. The other side of the coin is that the Gypsy Bands act as a counter balance to that kind of BS. They are a calm mediating factor in all of this. In the Centrall Valley however (and I'm referring to Pre-Saito here), the racisim is a solid unified wall against Metahumans and those people who would associate with them. It's cold, calculating, and indifferent. Metahuman's couldn't get shit done in the central valley, with the possible exception of the Oakland/Berkly sprawl because it was treated as a dumping ground. And keep in mind, this was all pre Saito. So he shows up in an area that already has a unified hatred of Metahumans, sure, some of them don't trust Saito because he's a forienger, but they get orders from Humanis and the Human Nation NOT to screw this up, or they'll up and "vanish". Some disobey anyway, and hook up with Anti Saito resistance groups. Now, I am by no means saying that Saito's regeime is self sufficient. In reality all he has is time before the lid blows off the area. If the Tir can't hold on forever, neither can Saito. The real question is how much time he can buy himself and how much damage he can do in that time. |
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Aug 17 2004, 07:07 PM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 216 Joined: 27-January 04 Member No.: 6,025 |
One other power player that has a vested interest in SF is Rumyo.
He wants the Ring of fire and in addition to being on the ring, SF is a major trade port. IF Rumyo can gain influence with the new child Emperor then I see a concerted push to regain control in the name of Japan(Rumyo). However, since Lung is trying to undercut Rumyo's influence wherever he can, this could lead to Lung's support of Sato just to keep SF out of his rivals hands. |
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Aug 17 2004, 07:18 PM
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#47
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Sidartha's right.
Ryumyo has particular trouble controlling the west coast North American section of the Ring of Fire, thanks to his fellow dragon, Hestaby. Hestaby controls one power site in Mount Shasta, and sits on the council that controls another, Crater Lake. The only edge Ryumyo has in that area to counter Hestaby is Saito, who happens to have strengthened some of Ryumyo's traditional vassals, the Yakuza. And Ryumyo certainly has never shown any problem backing a metahuman-hater. He had immense influence in Japan before the Comet. |
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Aug 18 2004, 02:32 AM
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#48
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
Yes Rumyo is big, but so are Mararu,Lung and Hestaby. Lung is at war with Rumyo. Rumyo Is trying to play in Hestaby's backyard. And Mararu would not want to share his time with child emporor with a dragon that would want to kill him,and take his stuff. Rumyo is big, but there are three great dragons that are basiclly either at war with him, or would lose a lot if he gained power in that area. I am voting on Hestaby's abillity to counter Rumyo's power.It may be his game, but it is her court. This also not counting how much ghost walker wants to live up to his brother's dream.you know reforming the US. If ghosty is using Denver as a staging ground for said actions, well Rumyo is now facing four great dragons, none of witch are push overs,and wile they may not like each other they most certainly dislike Rumyo more. |
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Aug 18 2004, 02:42 AM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 216 Joined: 27-January 04 Member No.: 6,025 |
That's my point really. Politics makes for strange bedfellows and any one of those Dragons and possibly other corp and government influences could lengthen or shorten Sato's rule because he really is in a pretty vulnerable position if anybody gets serious about knocking him out.
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