IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> [ShadowsOfEurope] Where's the Magic?
Pelaka
post Jul 26 2004, 06:40 AM
Post #1


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 44
Joined: 4-February 03
Member No.: 4,007



Reading SoE I see alot that I really like. However, I'm disappointed with how mundane Europe feels. Except for a few minor points the future history of Europe is completely mundane. This could just as easily be the setting of a cyber-punk game. Dragons don't enter into the world except as business men with particually bad reputations. Most of the social distructions caused by the awakening could easily be explained as disruptions caused by VITAS (that occured at the same time coincidently enough). The few magical disasters/events could be changed to eco-disasters and the text would read almost the same (such as Britany or the astral volcano). The Papal storyline could have just as easily been about conservative vs moderate stances on genetic/cyber technologies. The revivals of pagan religions could just as easily have been an explosive growth of mundane cults driven by the inability of the established roman catholic and protestant religions to respond to the sweeping social changes (metas, VITAS, wars, dehumanizing effects of cybertechnology).

Yes, there are some exceptions. The Pendragon and the ley lines in England. The elves in Ireland. But they are minor.

When I read the background on the Americas or Australia its clear how magic completely reshaped the hemisphere. The NAN from the Great Ghost Dance. The Aztechnology magical conspiricy. The rise of Amazonia. The mana storms in the Outback.

Now read SoE. It really feels like a different game.

Maybe the fey plotline is leading up to something. Or there could be something more to the revivals of the pagan religions... but I really think we need more of a magical "hook" then what we were presented.

Pel
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
otaku mike
post Jul 26 2004, 08:43 AM
Post #2


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 265
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Bangkok (sometimes Paris)
Member No.: 332



Though I can see where your argument comes from, I have to disagree when you say Europe looks "mundane". To stick with a part I now well —France— I think the country has been deeply reshaped by magic, except it's not as obvious as the NAN or Amazonia. Look at how the nobility retook the power, and you'll see they would have had a hard time to succeed without magic.
I also don't see how some bio-chemical leakage in Brittany could influence the people living there as much as the Mist. The Mist creates fear, even 30 years later, with means and effects that are definitively magical.

Also, look at Pragues, or the awakened Forest in Spain or Poland. Those are only examples.

Magic is percieved differently in Europe than in North America, though. And on that point I think we succeeded to show that though it's more hidden, less flamboyant, it's not less potent.

Finally, Sota 64 will have a fairly big chapter dedicated to Euro magic, should the need for more info arise.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nath
post Jul 26 2004, 05:31 PM
Post #3


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,756
Joined: 11-December 02
From: France
Member No.: 3,723



The most classical recipe for Awakened change can't work in Europe. In the NAN, Amazonia, Yakut (and Australia and Azania to smaller extent) a magical rebellion opposes native traditionalist using magic to the mundane westernized culture. But in Europe, the western culture and the native one are the same. It's a bit late to get a revenge on the Roman Empire or the barbarian invasions. Opposing paganists to christians is not a good pick either: christianity as well had its share of beliefs in dragons, magic and demons (the Church did not try to suppress these beliefs, only to use these creatures as bad guys).

Plus, the European lore is exhausted. Dragons, elves, dwarves, trolls, vampires, werewolves, witches, alchemists... SR put those everywhere. Hard to make anything specific for Europe with that.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pelaka
post Jul 26 2004, 05:50 PM
Post #4


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 44
Joined: 4-February 03
Member No.: 4,007



I think there is alot they could have done to make things more magical.

1. Have an outbreak in Germany of "remembering" similar to what happened in ED. Normal folks wake up one day having forgotten their past and they are essentially barbaric tribesman. It would take some fiddling to make sure these guys don't have any ED lore to mess up the other plot lines.

2. Translyvania raises up as an awakened power.

3. Have an ongoing war in parts of Europe against fey creatures invading from the metaplanes trying to rebuild their ancient homelands.

4. Have an "awakening" of the roman catholic church and a major islamic movement. With angles, demons and saints becomming more and more real. Have major scisms as folks and the church hierarchy have to decide if this is "real" or some sick game being played by free spirits.

5. Have an awakening among some of the noble classes where they develop a very real magical link to "their" land.

Pel
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Blue eyes
post Jul 26 2004, 06:07 PM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 129
Joined: 26-July 04
From: Arhus, Denmark & Paris, France
Member No.: 6,516



QUOTE (otaku mike)
Though I can see where your argument comes from, I have to disagree when you say Europe looks "mundane". To stick with a part I now well —France— I think the country has been deeply reshaped by magic, except it's not as obvious as the NAN or Amazonia. Look at how the nobility retook the power, and you'll see they would have had a hard time to succeed without magic.
I also don't see how some bio-chemical leakage in Brittany could influence the people living there as much as the Mist. The Mist creates fear, even 30 years later, with means and effects that are definitively magical.

Also, look at Pragues, or the awakened Forest in Spain or Poland. Those are only examples.

Magic is percieved differently in Europe than in North America, though. And on that point I think we succeeded to show that though it's more hidden, less flamboyant, it's not less potent.


Finally, Sota 64 will have a fairly big chapter dedicated to Euro magic, should the need for more info arise.

Any chance to get a little info on what will be covered????
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Blue eyes
post Jul 26 2004, 06:11 PM
Post #6


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 129
Joined: 26-July 04
From: Arhus, Denmark & Paris, France
Member No.: 6,516



QUOTE (otaku mike)
Finally, Sota 64 will have a fairly big chapter dedicated to Euro magic, should the need for more info arise.



Is there any chance to get some info on what will be in the chapter on Euro Magic?

Oopps I'm new and trying to figure out how it works...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Synner
post Jul 26 2004, 07:23 PM
Post #7


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,314
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado
Member No.: 185



Without giving anything away (which I can't), I will say the material in SOTA64 will complement the material in SoE regarding native European magic systems and build on current canon material in terms of both fiction and rules.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ancient History
post Jul 26 2004, 07:25 PM
Post #8


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,748
Joined: 5-July 02
Member No.: 2,935



Glee! :grinbig:
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sepherim
post Jul 27 2004, 03:20 PM
Post #9


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 326
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Vigo (Spanish Kingdom)
Member No.: 1,446



I'd like to say that everything in Europe is a bit more subtle in it's consequences. For example, someone pointed out that it seems that Europe had a way bigger effect of SURGE because of how it gets mentioned over and over (it is a magical event in it's base). But still, it gets mentioned once and again because it had very mundane consequences: in Spain, for example, it caused the Spanish Church to reach a tense moment, which would finally burst with the King's death and all that followed.

Magic, in Europe, is not viewed as such a "different thing" it's something more deeply rootened in our minds. There's a classic saying here in Galicia, which would translate something like: "witch's don't existe, but there are some without doubt". People don't believe in magic in their conscious, but it's still in the back of their minds. Accepting it has come back makes it become a more "mundane" force, with mundane consequences.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
booklord
post Aug 1 2004, 06:11 PM
Post #10


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 502
Joined: 14-May 03
From: Detroit, Michigan
Member No.: 4,583



Speaking of magical organizations that seem to have gone into hiding.

Why no update on Ordos Maximus? The U.K. chapter didn't have anything on them.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
FlakJacket
post Aug 1 2004, 07:07 PM
Post #11


King of the Hobos
*****

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,117
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 127



Hey, you got one of the most powerful in the world re-mentioned in canon - something which I'd have thought Rob was loath to do until I saw it. For the Ordo, Threats pretty much covered it. Gave you the main basics and allowed the GM to integrate it as they wanted, any more and you'd start cutting down their options IMO.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
VoceNoctum
post Aug 1 2004, 11:17 PM
Post #12


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 74
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 150



In my old campaign, I had the blood objects from ED make a reappearance. It had a different effect than Cyber in society, because of methods.
And hey, Kids will implant anything if it looks cool, and when someone dares you to have a worm eat out your eyeball so you can have a gem eye, durn it, but your honor's on the line!

Otherwise, a lot of the magic of other areas has also had more to do with weather and mother nature. The toxic's are always a good element, if they'd do stuff on a larger, more organized scale without becoming trite like Winternight.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Synner
post Aug 11 2004, 07:51 PM
Post #13


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,314
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado
Member No.: 185



As many of you will know by now, SOTA64 revisits the European magic traditions in detail - witchcraft, druidism and other pagans - giving some perspective on how to roleplay them and what they believe in (as well as some new rules to add to the stuff in MitS). It also delves deeper into what the hell this Unified Magical Theory that's cropped up in several books actually is and what it means to hermetic mages.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BIG BAD BEESTE
post Aug 12 2004, 03:54 PM
Post #14


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 379
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Earth
Member No.: 1,274



QUOTE (booklord)
Speaking of magical organizations that seem to have gone into hiding. Why no update on Ordos Maximus? The U.K. chapter didn't have anything on them.

Put simply - lack of space term. Not enough room to really stick a good mention in and the necessary details to back it up. Same goes for the bugs, shedim and those spontaneously manifesting nature spirits that continue to infest the Wild Lands.

That organisation does get a mention in the Swiss chapter though (I think - I recall it mentioned somewhere).

@ Pelaka
I believe that there is plenty of magic in Europe, although its use isn't as overt as that for the NAN, and definately not as far as comparing it to Oz's outback or Amazonia. The main difference here is that Europe is not as pristene as those places in the natual sense. This continent was the birthplace of mass industry and that is evident across it. The magic has become blended into the cultures. Like the European runner compared to their North American counterpart, it is less obvious, more subtle, but no less prevasive or effective.

However, there is plenty of opportunities for you as a GM to apply many, or all, of your ideas to your game. They can be integrated quite easily and without drastic changes. IE:

1> Regressive tribals - plenty of places for these to live. Scand Union for example or the fringes of Eastern Europe and Russia. As a matter of fact, I already assume that there are several of these communities dwelling in such locations as Tir na nOg, the UK Wild Lands, the Alps, Brittany, and the Black Forest. Perhaps not so much Earthdawn influenced, but still viable.

2> Now that idea is a good one, although it would be easy to go too White Wolf if not careful. Actually, I can't seem to remember much mentioned about this part of Europe. (But I haven't finished completely going over the whole SB yet either ;) )

3> Hmmm, an invasion by creatures from the metaplanes huh? Trying to avoid the whole Horrors/Enemy thread. I'm a believer that it being laid to rest was a good idea. A few interesting encounters with certain beings perhaps, but avoid the whole Evil Monsters from Beyond Attempt to Destroy the Planet thing. After all, I'll rather play Earthdawn for that one.
However, if you're more inclined for Spirits/Fey then there's nothing to stop you. In fact if you look a little harder there are plenty of opportunities for exactly this sort of insidious infiltration. Remember, the Fey are subtle masters of illusion and glamour.

4> This one's a matter of concensus really. There are rules for magicains as regards to faith already published in Magic in the Shadows. OK, no elaborate details, but that's not to say all those priests aren't communing with angels and demons.

5> Read the UK Chapter yet? Magical connection to the land is what the Ley Lines are all about. (And they aren't just limited to the UK either - Europe is crossed by hundreds (if not thousands) of them).

Overall though, I personally would have liked some more information on the supernatural - particularly darker spirits like ghosts, brocken bow and the shedim. Can you imagine the hauntings that would occur at historic sites throughout the continent, the mystery of the "Ghost Roads", or the horror of a mass Shedim possession at the cemetaries around the WWI & WWII battlefields? (The Somme for instance)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
RangerJoe
post Aug 12 2004, 04:11 PM
Post #15


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 749
Joined: 22-June 02
From: Parts Without
Member No.: 2,897



Amusingly enough, I've been in such a shaman mode the past few months (two new shaman PCs) that I completely missed the references to "the Unified Magical Theory." Now that it's finally registered, I'm thinking four things:

1) Whoa. Cool. Very, very cool. My hermetic researcher is going to love this.

2) Beware of complete understandings of anything. As the arch-mage Lord Kelvin reminded us more than 100 years ago: "There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now, All that remains is more and more precise measurement."

3) Maybe it has something to do with spirits? Elementals are great, but at 1000 yen per force point pop, they lack in flexibility. What if astral beings are all sort of the same....?

4) I'm skeptical. Hermetics come in all kinds of flavors, from Vatican friars to Prague's kabbalists, to MIT&T's techno-magical-geeks. As it has been said, "[I]'ve flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful force controlling everything." Makes you wonder how Unified magical theory is going to jibe with all the hermetic trappings now in place.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pelaka
post Aug 12 2004, 04:30 PM
Post #16


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 44
Joined: 4-February 03
Member No.: 4,007



Regarding my proposed Fey "invasion"... I wasn't thinking about in terms of an evil invasion anything like the bugs or the horrors. I was thinking more along the lines as an offshoot of humanity that decided to spend the magic-dead fifth age exploring the metaplanes rather then regressing to base human... and now they are comming home. They have been changed by their travels and they find the home they are returning to changed also. I wouldn't play it up as a good/evil conflict. Nor would their have to be any overt ED connection... they may not remember their roots any more then modern humanity does.

Pel.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BIG BAD BEESTE
post Aug 12 2004, 05:02 PM
Post #17


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 379
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Earth
Member No.: 1,274



Ah, looking back I didn't convey the Fey thing clearly enough. As you so rightly say there Pelaka it doesn't have to be a Good versus Evil thing. In fact what I intended to put across was what you've just said there as an alternative to the Good versus Evil style.

In fact I quite like the idea of the Fey "coming home" from their metaplanes to find things different. There's a lot of possibilities here and coupled with Europe's folklore and the magical connections to the land, makes for a very interesting concept.

Just look at the old Tir na nOg and London sourcebooks.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
audun
post Aug 12 2004, 08:02 PM
Post #18


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 179
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 381



QUOTE (RangerJoe)
Amusingly enough, I've been in such a shaman mode the past few months (two new shaman PCs) that I completely missed the references to "the Unified Magical Theory." Now that it's finally registered, I'm thinking four things:

1) Whoa. Cool. Very, very cool. My hermetic researcher is going to love this.

2) Beware of complete understandings of anything. As the arch-mage Lord Kelvin reminded us more than 100 years ago: "There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now, All that remains is more and more precise measurement."

3) Maybe it has something to do with spirits? Elementals are great, but at 1000 yen per force point pop, they lack in flexibility. What if astral beings are all sort of the same....?

4) I'm skeptical. Hermetics come in all kinds of flavors, from Vatican friars to Prague's kabbalists, to MIT&T's techno-magical-geeks. As it has been said, "[I]'ve flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful force controlling everything." Makes you wonder how Unified magical theory is going to jibe with all the hermetic trappings now in place.

Buy SOTA: 2064...
:nuyen: :nuyen: :nuyen: :nuyen: (for me)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Synner
post Aug 12 2004, 09:15 PM
Post #19


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,314
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado
Member No.: 185



What he said.

1) There's more than just the UMT in there for hermetics, we've worked up some more twists.

2) That's at least partially at the heart of the issues developed in SOTA.

3) Remember, understanding of magic in the Sixth World is in its infancy. However, there are clues that hermetic understanding of magic isn't complete or even cohesive and that's what we'll be delving into (at least partially).

4) All I can offer here is what Audun has already said. Let's just say that as all revolutionary concepts UMT will not be having a troublefree birth.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 29th March 2024 - 10:57 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.