[ShadowsOfEurope] Comments from the ancients in Europe Options

[Blue eyes]

A great many ancient elves live in Europe: The Laughing Man himself lives of the coast of France more precisely of the coast of Marseille. Some of them even got together to create Tir Na Nog. So why is it that besides one comment from The Laughing Man on page 92, none of them make any comments concerning the countries they live in?

This is Europe for centuries/millennias the old stomping grounds of the ancients! I find it very strange that they don't have anything more to say....

The well known enmity between Tir Na Nog and Tir Tairngire should at least lead to a few nasty comments from both sides...

Lastly only one comment from Harlequin seems awfully strange when dealing with The Laughing Man, who usually has much more to say!

[lorg]

I can but agree, Harelquin must have been of to Madagascar or someplace :)

[Ancient History]

That's what France was missing: the whole Chateau d'If bit!

[Nath]

I agree with you. I'd call that a fault. Blame it on the amount of things e had to think about, and how past some point we only cared about cutting things, not adding things we forgotten. I remember at some point in a draft I had The Laughing Man making a comment as a privilegied spectator of decades of gangs war in Marseille.

The Chateau d'If could have been mentionned, especially to correct the idea that it's a remote isolated place (it's right in front of Marseille, maybe a few hundred meters). On the other hand, there are probably a dozen of places as strange and mysterious in France, we just happen to know out of game that one in particular is very special. The forbidden island would be a prime suspect as soon as the rumor about S-K delta clinic is tossed away. Orange Queen could have for once mocked Harlequin, for living right in Lofwyr's French backyard. And then there should also be agents of Tir Tainrgire Information Secretariat around to search for a trail linking the Rinelle to Marseille.

And I'd just love to have a picture of Harlequin hanging around in Marseille, wearing the shirt of the local football club, sitting at a bar to drink a coffee or a pastis and watch the match...

[Pistons]

[Prospero]

For me, as a reader, the less IEs/Dragons/etc enter directly into the shadowtalk, the better. A few scattered comments are powerful. When they comment every few pages, it lessens the impact, IMHO. Anybody who remembers when Paranormal Animals of NA came out will probably remember Dunkelzahn's comment at the end. That is burned into my mind still, all these years later. I also liked Ghostwalker's one comment at the end of his section in Dot6W. Because it was one comment in a multitude of chit-chat, which lent it weight. Many of the IE/Dragon's comments since then have lost some of their weight, for me, because the character comments so often. Okay, it would have been cool for LM to have at least one comment on his home. But I'm not all that sad about it.

[Sepherim]

I haven't read those books, so can't comment on them directly, but that seems like the correct way to handle the uber-powerful NPCs to me.

[BIG BAD BEESTE]

Got to agree with Prospero there - less is certainly more.

Hmmm, as for LM's single comment, well, let's just say the connotations of the situation left him gobsmacked shall we? (I'm assuming its the one in the UK chapter, although p94 does seem a little too early for it judging on SoE's size - I'll eventually get to it now I've got my copy.)

[BIG BAD BEESTE]

Oh, and you're dead-on about the Paranimals of NA comment by Dunky. Personally, I also thought the comment by Harly in Paranimals of Europe regarding the wraiths was also a good one liner. Impact is everything.

[Skeptical Clown]

I don't think anyone's really gotten the proper feel for Harlequin right in many a year, so I don't mind that he doesn't get much use. Besides, unless there's a specific reason to use them, it's just as well that dragons and immortal elves aren't sitting around making lots of posts on Shadowland. It's just a bit silly.

[Senchae]

I just read SoE, and I counted 3 comments by Celedyr (two as Script-Diver and one as Stone-Diver, assuming those were all him) and two by the Laughing Man. And, both of the Laughing Man's quotes were roughly him going "really? Hmm."

So not much- I would have liked to see a little more, m'self. I agree that it shouldn't be too much, but they could have afforded a little more. IMHO.

[BIG BAD BEESTE]

Hmmm, and for the next project how about:

"Aha! Now to tap the arcane powers of this lay with my trusty bequeathed sword - AAARrRRGGHHHH!" Fizzle! Smell of smoking Harley boots and burnt leather jacket?

One down, two Pixie Nations to go... :)

[Skeptical Clown]

I noticed Celedyr either doesn't understand what Occam's Razor means, or is just referring to something off-topic completely (or that my puny brain is too puny to comprehend.)

[Synner]

It's your puny brain :P.

Occam's razor is a "(...)logical principle attributed to the mediaeval philosopher William of Occam (or Ockham). The principle states that one should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed. This principle is often called the principle of parsimony. It underlies all scientific modelling and theory building. It admonishes us to choose from a set of otherwise equivalent models of a given phenomenon the simplest one(...)" or in very simplifed terms "the simplest answer tends to be the correct one."

IIRC in this particular case Celedyr is referring to the fact that the humans posting obviously can get around the idea that the most complex, inconsistent and "unbelievable" answer (ie. that Lofwyr is behind the NEEC) is actually correct, while the application of Occam's logic (ie. the simple answer) is wrong.

Trust a dragon not to think in the simplest terms.

[Skeptical Clown]

Yeah I'm just not a fan of using Occam's Razor for such mundane affairs. The scientific application for it is really simple and obvious: Eliminate redundancies in your logic. If you have two hypotheses that say exactly the same thing, but one includes extra information, then the extra information is extraneous. Interpreting it as "The simplest explanation tends to be the correct one" isn't really a satisfying summary, as it tends to encourage people to misuse the theory, simply because they can't distinguish between 'simplistic' and 'simplified'. This is the kind of mistake people make when they try to use Occam's razor to prove alien abductions, or the existence of God. Since the posters obviously don't have enough information to form strong hypothesis as to what happened, they can't really eliminate redundancies in their logic.

[Synner]

The scientific principle of Parsimony (aka Principle of Simplicity) is described in the Encyclopaedia Britannica as a "criterion for deciding among scientific theories or explanations according to which one should always choose the simplest explanation of a phenomenon, the one that requires the fewest leaps of logic."

Or maybe Celedyr's pointing out the fact that for all of shadowposters' vaunted insider knowledge they're still puny humans and "don't have enough information to form strong hypothesis as to what happened, they can't really eliminate redundancies in their logic."

Read it as you will, Celedyr still comes off as one clever dracoform.

[Skeptical Clown]

I guess. He comes off to me more inelegantly snooty than clever, in an "I know something you don't know" way. I mean, of course he's going to know more about it than they do. :P

But there's nothing that says a dragon has to be elegant, nor that it can't be snooty. I'd imagine snootiness is actually a very draconian trait.

[Synner]

[Snow_Fox]

Beyond Chateau D'ife there are numerous mythic sites in western europe missed in the book that are clearly for spaces sake. The Loire valley chateau's, Rhine Castles, New Grange in Ireland, and loads of Roman ruins from Cisalpine Gaul to Hardians' Wall.

Harelquin has changed in recent years, not through bad writing but the character. Before, oh, say 2057 he was a force of chaos, who got his kicks from blowing smoke in the face of other ancients but letting poor mortals into the game, or at least letting them know it was being played.

With the Death of Dunkelzahn he, of all the immortals, seemed to be the one to take up the challenge in the will to take dunkelzahn's self appointed place as the champion for metahumanity. With the "songbird" Dunkelzahn and Harlequin seemed to come to an understanding and mutual respect, hense the final item left to H by Dunkelzahn, Excaliber. The fact he has to find it ihmself it more of a mythic statement than acknowledgement that something is missing from his trove.

[Skeptical Clown]

Therein, I suppose, lies my disinterest in Harlequin these days. I thought Harlequin was more interesting when he was simply a self-interested eccentric, rather than the savior of humanity. Even in Harlequin's Back, he retained some of that self-centered quality even while he showed a bit deeper character. There was still ambiguity. Likewise, I thought Dunkelzahn was more interesting when he was a curious, gregarious, and vaguely philanthropic dragon, than... well, you know. Even in Dunkelzahn's will, there was an ambiguous and prankster-like nature to the bequests that make you think he wasn't entirely a nice guy. Maybe he was even a bit vindictive. But that ambiguity get overshadowed when we know that hey, they're just saving the world.

Besides, I thought Hestaby was the self-appointed meddling savior of humanity!

[Maollelujah]

[audun]

[BIG BAD BEESTE]

Not saying a word. Nope. Completely hush-hush. Nill nada. On the QT...

[Pistons]

Might want to rein back the teasing.

[otaku mike]

Yep, if you can't show anything else, at least show some self-control guys. 8)