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> Aces High, How to win money without running!
Enigma
post Jul 27 2004, 12:53 AM
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I'm in the midst of designing a professional gambler, and the concept is someone who is a world-class poker player. Yes I know this isn't technically a professional gambler.

Anyway, as part of the concept I've been looking into rules for Poker, as in who wins each hand and so on.

What I have so far is this. I've created a new knowledge skill (Card Games) of which a concentration is Poker. The rules allow for a determination per hand, or just a "how well did I do?" type determination.

The minimum bet is set, and then each player (GM rolling for NPCs) makes an open test, using Card Games (Poker), or defaulting to Intelligence. The result is modified by various things, and the person with the highest roll wins. The amount they win equals (total roll) x (minimum bet), up to a house limit (a GM tool to stop it getting out of hand).

The tricky bit is the modifiers. There are obvious things like the SPU Math (+rating), Empathic Sense (+# successes in Perception (4) test modified by background count), and so on. The more difficult thing, and where I throw the topic open for any constructive comments, is other modifiers.

The first difficulty is counting cards. There are techniques for doing it and there are ways of stopping it. Obviously, in a casino, you will get thrown out if they catch you (or strongly suspect you), so what I was thinking was a seperate skill of Cheating, with Counting Cards being a concentration. You make a roll against target 4, and the successes add to your result, however the house (the dealer, plus a nominal perception roll equating to the monitoring of the table, if any) rolls against twice your successes. One success equals suspicion (more active watching) and two or more successes gets you booted out. The problems with this is it's going to be spotted eventually (which is moderately realistic) and also that counting cards is an over-all advantage (ie you play a number of hands and it helps you as you are able to identify who has what cards) rather than hand-specific. Also, the target number of (4) could go up depending on the precautions the house takes to prevent this (for example, using multiple decks).

The second difficulty is cheating through sleight of hand, card palming and so on. I've created a Sleight of Hand active skill, which deals with doing it, but how does the above Poker roll get modified? I also know by virtue of my job that only incredibly skilled or incredibly stupid people try to palm cards etc because it is too risky, and I was wondering how this might be reflected in the rolls.

Finally, I would also appreciate any info anyone has on sources of background, reading or watching. I'm particularly looking for info on cunning ways of cheating. I've seen Rounders (that Matt Damon movie, which inspired the character partly), and I've read King Con. I was wondering if anyone knew any other books or movies about card cheats, high-stakes poker players and so on. Oh yes, I have the whole first season of Las Vegas taped.

Any and all help, comments or constructive criticism appreciated.
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BitBasher
post Jul 27 2004, 01:11 AM
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Counting cards does not work in poker, counting cards is exclusive to blackjack, and then only on single deck and to a lesser extend double deck games.

Las Vegas is far harder to cheat on a large scale then movies and books make it, because everything, EVERYTHING is taped, and if they suspect anything they just run the tape, available at very high res and from multiple angles.

Get caught cheating at cards and they do not just kick you out, they cnfiscate all wour winings and theres a fair to good chance you get beaten from badly on up from there. Also, you only get caught once, then you're blacklisted from all casinos. They basically have a network to spread information like that.

Finally by the time SR rolls around the cards would likely be RFID'd or tagged making card switching basically impossible.
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Shockwave_IIc
post Jul 27 2004, 01:23 AM
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Ok, First thing, Poker is a game of skill not luck, card counting as mentioned helps squat. Psychology is proberbly the best skill to have, because poker is very much about reading your opponent not the cards. If you can tell if he's got a good hand or make them believe you have, you pretty much have the game.

Slight of hand? Unlikely Dealers are the ones that generaly "handle" the cards, Little chance of get a card swap.

Personally Knowing what i know about casinos (being that i work in one) I've pretty much banned them to background effects only.
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Enigma
post Jul 27 2004, 01:33 AM
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OK - I see that I have the wrong tack. Can I draw upon your experience to suggest the effects that a decent poker player with the Empathic sense power would have? Can you also suggest any changes to the rules I have suggested?

I have also a great need for background material, as in movies or books.
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BitBasher
post Jul 27 2004, 02:01 AM
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As discrimatory as this is, it's very liekly that magically active folks would be banned from poker rooms for tis reason, and astral perception, or allows in "awakened only" games. Casinos would definitely have a good initiate working in the eye looking for folks doing anything magically active.

There's just no way anyone would play in a game for real stakes with someone who could read them like a book. That kind of defeats the entire point of the game. That's the exact definition of things they try to stop.

EDIT: also remember, 4 or 5 sucesses on an assensing test and they know all your adept powers. That really doesn't work for you here.
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KillaJ
post Jul 27 2004, 02:09 AM
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QUOTE (Enigma)
I have also a great need for background material, as in movies or books.

Rounders was all about poker players wasn't it?
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Ol' Scratch
post Jul 27 2004, 02:30 AM
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Wanna be a bad-ass poker player?

Max out Charisma and Willpower. Max out Etiquette, Negotiation (Bluffing) (your most vital skill) and Intimidation (Mental). Snag the Bonus Attribute: Willpower (to resist everyone else's abilities), Good Looking & Knows It, Good Reputation 2, Friendly Face, and Aptitude: Negotiation edges. Consider Tailored Phermones if available.

For Knowledge Skills snag Acting (Bluffing), Psychology (Poker), and the Poker knowledge skill. I like Texas Hold 'Em, so that's what I would take for my Poker specialization, too, but pick a specialization and go with it. The Poker knowledge skill gives you all the probabilities (very useful) and card counting (not so useful) abilities you'll need.

Once you have those, and assuming you're still going with adept (note that the above is all you really need), initiate as soon as you can. In order, get the following metamagic techniques: Masking, Centering (Physical Skills), Centering (Social Skills), and Centering (Knowledge Skills). After that, Psychometry or Divination would be good ones to plan for. Your actual adept powers are pretty much a moot point. Astral Perception will be nice after you get a few grades of Masking under your belt so that opponent magicians won't be able to spot you... and always, always use active masking when entering a casino.

If you want to get the cyberware, wait until you find a delta clinic (and with your social finesse, that shouldn't be a problem) and get a delta-grade Math SPU 3 with the Concealed surgical option (and while you're at it, get Improved Looks and Natural Surgery if you have confidence in your surgeon to succeed). If anyone can spot that implant, you were going to get busted anyway. :) Note that this implant wouldn't/shouldn't technically be illegal... but it would be highly discouraged by casinos. And it's nice, but nothing a Mathematics knowledge skill wouldn't do as well.

Voila. One uberpowerful poker player. Note that the magical and cyberware aspects are completely optional. Playing as an albino gnome will make you that much more powerful (+3 Willpower) at the cost of being incredibly lame. Don't worry about a high Charisma (ie, playing an elf) since anything over 7 is pretty much a waste, and you should easily be able to achieve that with the Improved Looks surgical option alone.
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xizor
post Jul 27 2004, 06:56 AM
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you might consider a natural edge in this case,
lucky, ( aptitude : cards or gambling)
providing a -1 target number modifyer.

my friends hate playing cards with me, because i am able to notice the top card when they shuffle the deck and i have a good memory. also i seem to get the cards i need when i need them.

so the things that i think would benefit the charachter are:
a really good memory = head wear memory
luck
the ability to watch and remember the cards as they are shuffled = opti cam with image magnification
a program running checking for rules infractions
phycology
acting
more money than they can possible lose

as well as other things mentioned above and things i havent thought of mentioned below
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hyzmarca
post Jul 27 2004, 09:23 AM
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Either ESPN or ESPN2 shows the World Championship of Poker when it rolls around. Watching that will give you some idea of how it is done. Entering your PC in huch an event is a bad idea, however. There are only two types of people who will play with a world class poker player, idiots and other world class players. It is quite possible that casinos would prevent a world class professional from playing in casual games. It is simply unfair to the suckers, like letting the Yankies compete in a little-league game.
The quickest way for a gambler to make money is to social engeneer his way into a high-rollers' game. The most you can make on the casino floor is a few hundred nuyen per hand. But, there are big-wigs who like to gamble and can afford to drop a few hundred thousand per hand. You just have to get enough nuyen to put up the appearance of that level of wealth and do a lot of smooth-talking and favor-trading. Such games are great ways to create powerful contacts, as well. Plus, it is always fun to walk up to a casino employee and state that you're expected at Lowfyr's private table.

Also, when hustling it is important to know when and how much to lose. Amature gamblers play for fun. Its not fun if you're the only one who even wins.
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Thistledown
post Jul 27 2004, 03:38 PM
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I made a gambler character based off Setser in FF6 a few years back. Lumped most of the stuff into an active skill gambling(cards) and left it at that. Physad.

Most casinos won't let awakend characters gamble, or will watch them extremely closely. Which is why he stole his own casino (another long story.)

As to sources, try "The Gambler" 1-4, and "Mavrick" (don't know how many.) They're both westerns (sort of), but they've got plenty in them. Gambler 4 is fun to watch just for the camios if you know your old shows.

One of the native american nations books talked about vegas, and described some of the casinos a little. That might be helpful for you.
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Raife
post Jul 27 2004, 05:50 PM
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Just take the appropriate knowledge skills, then grab the flaw day job to represent the time he spends gambling.

A couple "high roller" contacts would also make since.
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lspahn72
post Jul 27 2004, 06:03 PM
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Anyone see the Discovery Channel show about the MIT Blackjack Team??


Basicly these guys played as a group instead of individuals to increase there odds. Only got busted due to carelessness and greed, but it worked great. As for counting cards, if you have better than average IQ you can count 1 deck( say a INT of 4), but i would make it a mathmatics skill.

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Xirces
post Jul 27 2004, 06:11 PM
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QUOTE (lspahn72)
Anyone see the Discovery Channel show about the MIT Blackjack Team??

I saw an article online about it - wish I could remember where it was :sleepy:

Some quite interesting things about the way they worked - very SRlike
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Fygg Nuuton
post Jul 27 2004, 07:03 PM
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i saw it in my psych class, living in vegas it was pretty interesting.

they do let the world champions play, they have high stakes rooms, where if you want to make.lose money you can do it with other crazy people

they would have awakened games i would guess, mundanes who were stupid could play in them too i guess

hustling isnt about always winning, its knowing when to win and lose.

i think someone said that already
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PBTHHHHT
post Jul 27 2004, 07:22 PM
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Get a guy to play on the floor with headware radio and imagelink in his eyes, and also having good ECCM, flux rating, encryption, etc....

Have a wiz decker/rigger sleaze into the casino security system, or better yet have a on site tap into the casino security system and be able to transmit a highly encrypted broadcast out to your buddy on the floor so he can what everyone has at the table with the security cameras.

Might not be foolproof, but hey who knows where those cameras are located in the casino, eh? Catch a brief glimpse and know if that guy sitting over there is bluffing or not.... Especially if the table is rigged for the 2064 World Poker Championship trids, but I imagine the safeguards will be very good too....
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pk323
post Jul 27 2004, 09:03 PM
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QUOTE (lspahn72)
Anyone see the Discovery Channel show about the MIT Blackjack Team??


Basicly these guys played as a group instead of individuals to increase there odds. Only got busted due to carelessness and greed, but it worked great. As for counting cards, if you have better than average IQ you can count 1 deck( say a INT of 4), but i would make it a mathmatics skill.

Well, Ben Mezrich wrote a great book about it...Bringing Down the House I think it was called. Basically, if one person counts cards, it's really easy for the dealer to tell because his bets will swing wildly based on what the player knows is coming. But if one person counts cards but always plays the minimum bet every time, and then signals another player when the deck is "hot" (lots of high cards left), then the other player can sit down, bet high for four or five hands, and look like he just was rich and got lucky.

Of course, a lot of the casinos have constantly-running automated shufflers now, so cards can't be counted anymore anyhow.

And of course card counting isn't so effective outside of blackjack. And anyway, the casinos usually use five decks shuffled together, not just one.
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pk323
post Jul 27 2004, 10:34 PM
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QUOTE (PBTHHHHT)
Get a guy to play on the floor with headware radio and imagelink in his eyes, and also having good ECCM, flux rating, encryption, etc....

Have a wiz decker/rigger sleaze into the casino security system, or better yet have a on site tap into the casino security system and be able to transmit a highly encrypted broadcast out to your buddy on the floor so he can what everyone has at the table with the security cameras.

Might not be foolproof, but hey who knows where those cameras are located in the casino, eh? Catch a brief glimpse and know if that guy sitting over there is bluffing or not.... Especially if the table is rigged for the 2064 World Poker Championship trids, but I imagine the safeguards will be very good too....

That's actually a great idea for a run... ::steal::
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Ol' Scratch
post Jul 27 2004, 10:39 PM
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With the amount of cash casinos have available, they are going to have security and monitoring systems that rival the blackest secret labs on Earth because if they didn't, people would be cheating left and right.

As long as you avoid games that rely more on luck (Blackjack or Craps) and instead rely than skill (Poker) you're going to be more successful actually playing than cheating. Especially since skill-based games tend to have a higher pay off anyway.
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BitBasher
post Jul 27 2004, 10:42 PM
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Actually Craps has one of the highest chances of all the casino games that you can win cash if you know what bets to make.
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TinkerGnome
post Jul 27 2004, 10:51 PM
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You know... gambling is a good explanation for karma to cash. Which is pretty much the only way I'd let runners make any real cash at if it wasn't a plot-specific thing.
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BitBasher
post Jul 27 2004, 10:55 PM
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Actually Craps has one of the highest chances of all the casino games that you can win cash if you know what bets to make.
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Bob the Ninja
post Jul 27 2004, 11:08 PM
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I thought that Blackjack had the best odds for players. That is to say, the house still has an advantage, just not so high.
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Shockwave_IIc
post Jul 28 2004, 12:04 AM
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Blackjack the best odd's for the player (which is still house favour) .55% house edge with six decks or .51% with 4 decks. Punto banco is next best with 1.06% for "Banco" then 1.24% for "Punto" Playing even chances on Roulette (with 1 zero) at 1.35% Craps is next with the pass/Don't Pass bets at 1.41% and 1.49%.

QUOTE
Of course, a lot of the casinos have constantly-running automated shufflers now, so cards can't be counted anymore anyhow.

While true, some casino's (the more customer/staff orintated ones) refuse to use them. 1, Customers don't like them. 2, The dealer start suffering from repeatative strain injurys.

QUOTE
And of course card counting isn't so effective outside of blackjack. And anyway, the casinos usually use five decks shuffled together, not just one.


Most common that i know of is in fact 6 decks.
Side note: Card Locating (note different from card counting) has varing degrees of difficulty depends on the way the dealer shuffles.

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RedmondLarry
post Jul 28 2004, 02:57 AM
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I think gambling in Shadowrun should not be done "In Character". If you want to create complex rules for gambling or cheating at gambling, then someone will want to use those complex rules. Using those rules to any extent will waste the time of the other players.

Whatever gambling rules are picked should have only a quick resolution system, so if a character actually uses his/her gambling skills, it takes one or two dice rolls to determine the entire outcome of a night or week of gambling.

We play this game to go on shadowruns. To write rules, as the subtitle of this post suggests, "how to win money without running", is basically a way to say lets not play shadowrun.
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Ol' Scratch
post Jul 28 2004, 02:59 AM
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Poker: Negotiation (Bluff) Test with Poker as a Complimentary Skill. That's how I've always handled it.
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