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> [ShadowsOfEurope] Poland, Other countries have their own threads..
Prospero
post Jul 28 2004, 12:50 AM
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Just wondering what people thought of Poland. I don't know if the authors hang around here or not, but if so, lemme say thank you! So far it is easily my favorite chapter of the book (I'm in the middle of Portugal right now). Fantastic.

It has a little bit of everything: you have a war for the merc types (which also invovles lots of home-grown spy networks and intel gathering, for the runner types), you have major smuggling in the Tricities area (since Gdansk is the place I've been to in Poland for any length of time and where my Polish friends live, I was interested in it's fate), you have organized crime wars, you have a new, mysterious dragon who no one knows much about, you have creepy, Awakened wilderness... You have all this and its all written up very well. You made me believe that the popular uprising backed by mercs and expatriots could take a section of the country. They why's and hows of it being stalled is good, too. Plus, all of it meshed seamlessly with the well-written Polish 6th World history. The whole thing doesn't feel forced. I could believe that what you wrote would really be the future history of Poland. Great job!
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Ancient History
post Jul 28 2004, 12:57 AM
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Hey, I love it. I can finally rip off all those old World War II Poland plots.
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Synner
post Jul 28 2004, 07:59 AM
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Definitely one of my favorite chapters in the book and a distinctly different war setting to others previously seen in Shadowrun. I particularly liked the way it paints things in shades of grey, and portrays it as a really messy affair like true civil war really is.

I also liked the writing, it conveyed both the bleakness and the atmosphere.

Strangely enough Prospero, one of the co-authors of the chapter is Portuguese and a good friend.

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Snow_Fox
post Jul 29 2004, 01:08 AM
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QUOTE (Ancient History)
Hey, I love it. I can finally rip off all those old World War II Poland plots.

It's far more than that. It's basic Polish history going back centuries. They've been kicked around and invaded by every power in town going back to the days of the great Khan. How they have maintained their ethnic identiy is only a testimoney to their great resilientcy. Pretty much any story going back through the cold war, both world wars, napolean and the Tsars can be reworked.

This chapter lets you have a war with lots of big bangs, and slips in a little of russia without having to add another chapter.
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Ancient History
post Jul 29 2004, 01:38 AM
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Yeah, but who makes films of everybody else invading the Poles? Only the Nazis or the Russians sell movies. Look at "The Pianist."
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Black Isis
post Jul 29 2004, 09:39 PM
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Was I the only one disappointed not to see anything about the Black Madonna, followed by shadowtalk about crazy undead paratroopers guarding it in a secret shrine? :)

Kudos to anyone who picks up that reference. :)
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Snow_Fox
post Jul 30 2004, 02:42 AM
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QUOTE (Ancient History)
Yeah, but who makes films of everybody else invading the Poles? Only the Nazis or the Russians sell movies. Look at "The Pianist."

Ever see Toras Bulba with Tony Curtis and Yul Brynner?
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Ancient History
post Jul 30 2004, 02:45 AM
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That's a negatory. I'm an uncultured bastard. SHould I imdb it?
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FlakJacket
post Jul 30 2004, 02:55 AM
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Ah Poland, doormat of Europe. Everyone just comes right on in and walks all over them. ;) Faintly amusing to see the AK back in action only this time swapping out the Germans for the Russians as the bad guys. :)

Hey Snow Fox, have you got this yet? I think you'll be pleasntly surprised at certain parts of the Italy/Vatican section.
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Birdy
post Jul 30 2004, 03:28 AM
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There's a book "The Crusaders". Author is a 19th century Pole so it's a bit on the "Hurray Poland" side. Still a nice read on the Crusades against the Poles (Yes, real crusades like in "let's bring them our! Christianity and make a nice buck by doing so)

And while not Poland "Alexandre Newsk" definitly fits in (same Crusaders/Time, just Ukranians)


Birdy
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Snow_Fox
post Jul 31 2004, 03:48 AM
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QUOTE (FlakJacket)
Hey Snow Fox, have you got this yet? I think you'll be pleasntly surprised at certain parts of the Italy/Vatican section.

Yes, and I am. Immortallity! :D
but if you'll notice the names of some of the threads, I'm the one who came up with the idea here for each nation to get it's own thread so we can look at particular chapters instead of the whole thing.
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mattness pl
post Aug 16 2004, 09:24 PM
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First things first. Sorry for my English.
Hoi Chummers. After year of off-line silence i'm back in dumpshock:)
Many new faces, but i think i've met some of you, guys(Synner, i think we talked year ago[display:wide grin].)
Now, back to the topic:
I didn't saw European Sourcebook yet(but it's downloading when i write this words;) ) so - sorry if i tell something that was already in the book;)

QUOTE (Ancient History)
  Hey, I love it. I can finally rip off all those old World War II Poland plots.

If you mean background count(grimoire IInd edition. If that rule is obsolete, please, correct me), IMHO the WHOLE Poland has it at least at +1/+2 B.C.
napoleon's (&Hitler's :))) )army lost many men during retreat from Moscow(cold, lack of food).
Deportations- to Germany, concentration camps in Poland/Germ, in XIX century & During and AFTER WWII many poles were sent to Syberia/other Gulags.
Of course, places such as Auschwitz(polish Oswiecim), Sobibory, Majdanek(all three were concentration camp during II WW) got higher B.C. ....
History of Po(pe)land is counted since 966 when my country joined catholics(hell, how to tell in English that the whole country was blessed?).
Since then my land was witness of many slaughters, invasions, deportations etc.
Try Norman Davies book "God's playground"-very good one!. I hope authors of Poland chapter in European sourcebook read it.
For example: In medievil, during one of (mongols/tartars i think)raids one of our (silesian) princes Henryk Pobozny was decapitated and his head was stacked(?) on the lance...
=>FlakJacket: not only AKs, man. Polish special troops-GROM-uses SOTA weapons right now(H&K MP5, etc). The only plain polish weapon i know is VIS 9mm para(In SR that will be dmg:9L, range of Light Pistol). AKs-47 is used by soldiers from draft and policemen(lol)
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Synner
post Aug 16 2004, 09:36 PM
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QUOTE (mattness pl)
I didn't saw European Sourcebook yet(but it's downloading when i write this words;) ) so - sorry if i tell something that was already in the book;)

I will note that this is possibly the worst possible way I've seen of making an entrance. Showing up on a forum where the authors hang out, especifically dedicated to the book they laboured over for 5 years and saying you're downloading it is as bad as it gets. No matter how hard it might be to get stuff in Poland the book is available just over the border and since you're now in the EU shipping from FanPro's F-Shop in Germany is only 2-3 euros tops. There's absolutely no excuse.

QUOTE
QUOTE (Ancient History)
  Hey, I love it. I can finally rip off all those old World War II Poland plots.

Try Norman Davies book "God's playground"-very good one!. I hope authors of Poland chapter in European sourcebook read it.

One of the authors of the chapter is a Pole living in Poland and the other is also a European who did extensive research into the country. Having lived in Poland for a while as a kid during the tail end of the Cold War I can say they nailed the atmosphere of desperate hope and overall chaos on the head.
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mattness pl
post Aug 16 2004, 10:17 PM
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I'm sorry. That was very stupid. I know it.

Synner, you wrote: there is no excuse. And you're right . But i must at least try to defend myself.

And i was wrong . I don't downloading SoE right now. You may think i'm lying. But that's the truth.

It's great, that WizKid's buy out FASA's licence on Shadowrun. And i prefer traditional books, than pdfs. But ask you're polish friend how much is 1200 zlotys(that's my monthly fee). Maybe you change you're mind about me. And i repeat one more time. What i write earlier was stupid, and i'm truly sorry. MATT
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Synner
post Aug 16 2004, 10:44 PM
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Apologies accepted. I understand the difficulties getting SR material on what is the equivalent of third world salaries... I'm in much the same situation in Portugal. I'll see if I can help you out by putting you in touch with the Polish author and who knows he might have a copy he can sell you at a "discount rate".
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mattness pl
post Aug 18 2004, 05:15 PM
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QUOTE
Apologies accepted

Thank you. If that offer is serious email me: mattness<at>op.pl

I mention Davis "God's playground".
The problem isn't the knowledge of chapter's authors. Is the capacity of that chapter Poland. (I suspect) 20-50 pages? And 1000 years of history. Seattle had is own sourcebook. Maybe in SR universe Seattle is quasi city-state. But, still, Poland is a country! I cannot put this more clearly - lack of English, sorry. I hope you know what i mean?
When I was writing about Davis "GP" I addressed that recommendation rather to game masters. Than book can give you deeper picture about my country when you'll planning scenario/campaign in Poland. Besides, that's the only good book about polish history in English that I now:)

And I don't know book which give you idea how poles think, how they act. And I don't know what to tell you about it. No hints from me.
"Yeah, we know how poles act. You know that one: drunk as polish?;)". Yes, I know. But I don't drink at all. So drop stereotypes.
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mmu1
post Aug 20 2004, 02:45 AM
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I flipped through the Poland section in the store (don't GM, so I doubt I'll pick it up, interesting as it looks) and I got a kick out of the "Kapitan Zbik" references.

I guess in 2063 no one remember any more where that name originated... Heh. :D

As for the feel of it... I'm not quite sure I buy the level of overt cooperation with the Russians - if only because I don't think they'd have trusted the Poles enough to allow the establishment of even a puppet government, but maybe that's national pride talking.

It also (in terms of tech level, living standards) seems to be more of an extrapolation from the stereotype of Poland as a 3rd world country it never really was, than the Poland of the 90's and 2000's.
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mattness pl
post Aug 20 2004, 04:52 PM
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QUOTE ((mmu1))
I flipped through the Poland section in the store (don't GM, so I doubt I'll pick it up, interesting as it looks) and I got a kick out of the "Kapitan Zbik" references.

I guess in 2063 no one remember any more where that name originated... Heh.

If you played Fallout 2, maybe you remember Cassidy and origins of his name? :grinbig:
QUOTE ((mmu1))
As for the feel of it... I'm not quite sure I buy the level of overt cooperation with the Russians - if only because I don't think they'd have trusted the Poles enough to allow the establishment of even a puppet government, but maybe that's national pride talking.

There is precedent - if i'm correct until 1830 we've(Poland) got autonomy as a part of russian empire("Kraj Nadwislanski" Vistula's country). Even tzar's brother - i think he's name was Konstanty was our "prince". After November Uprising of 1830 we lost autonomy and become part of russia.

(mmu1) saidI buy the level of overt cooperation with the Russians

- check WWI - poles split into two parts - part of us fought & support Germans and Austria(Pilsudski, man, Pilsudski! lol) , rest believe that if we'll be loyal to Tzar, maybe he will grant us independence(I'm not sure but Dmowski can be an example). So during World War I poles fought each other.
You mention overt of cooperation. Check "szmalcownicy" during nazi ocupation. Those traitors sold jews to nazis. We're not innocent(mattness pl is upset), man. We must accept facts, when they spit in our face.
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mmu1
post Aug 20 2004, 07:01 PM
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QUOTE (mattness pl)
There is precedent - if i'm correct until 1830 we've(Poland) got autonomy as a part of russian empire("Kraj Nadwislanski" Vistula's country). Even tzar's brother - i think he's name was Konstanty was our "prince". After November Uprising of 1830 we lost autonomy and become part of russia.

- check WWI - poles split into two parts - part of us fought & support Germans and Austria(Pilsudski, man, Pilsudski! lol) , rest believe that if we'll be loyal to Tzar, maybe he will grant us independence(I'm not sure but Dmowski can be an example). So during World War I poles fought each other.
You mention overt of cooperation. Check "szmalcownicy" during nazi ocupation. Those traitors sold jews to nazis. We're not innocent(mattness pl is upset), man. We must accept facts, when they spit in our face.

I am not talking about the existence of collaborators - there were too many by far of those in every occupied country, and we've had our share. That's not the point.

I just don't buy the idea of Russia invading Poland in the 2030's and turning the country into a helpless satellite state again after more than 40 years of independence... Sure, it's an alternate timeline, so you can have virtually anything happen, but it just doesn't feel right today - like many things SR, it's a product of the late 80's, and the world has changed.
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mattness pl
post Jan 10 2005, 06:18 AM
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I think discussion went in wrong direction. Poland chapter, since publication of SoE, became a cannon.

It is good very good occasion to dispute about my country in Shadowrun universe.
I read polish chapter already (and take a look on other countries).
I'm very courious what you will add to my country?
From kosherpickle review I see there's no need for other major NPC's ;) ...
I think I can declare, that polish fans are trying to write description of Poland in 6th World. For now I cannot told you, what ideas we have.
Poland chapter is a base for us - we want maintain the standards.
But maybe you have any ideas, suggestions?
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Synner
post Jan 10 2005, 08:27 AM
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As of late 2063 the Polish situation is still in flux. The Free Polish Summer Drive failed to materialize (basically the divisions between the Husaria and the frontline volunteers have been getting worse) but then the Nationalist surprise counteroffensive was not only routed but suffered signifiant losses thanks to some black ops and intel on behalf of the Free Poles (this from SOTA64) paid for by some "friends".

This boosted Free Pole unity and morale (and changed many minds about accepting someone scaly's backing). The Nationalist regime and the Russians took it hard and Rybinski is definitely trying to get out now. However the decisive factor on how things will work out in Poland is in fact events in Russia (also foreshadowed in SOTA64) to be developed in Shadows of Asia.
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