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> [ShadowsOfEurope] Italy, This is a forum and not the circus.
Snow_Fox
post Jul 28 2004, 02:14 AM
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Ok a classical reference. I hate to say I wasn't thrilled with Italy. I think it's probably because Synner penned this and he's not Italian so it lacked something of the "feel." Rome was well done and the church, but too much else just felt like threads, just slipping away from my fingers.

The south is limited to Mafia rules. The north is an urban hell and Venice. There were bits that just tugged at me, the discription of the canals being cleaned up or the safe zones in Turin that sounded good but I'm afraid too much else seemed just like a list of places, thank you on to the next.

My best guess is that it was just too much to handle in the given space. Sorry, being honest, at least when you know I like something you know I'm being legit.

oh and what's up with the Balkans? They're on the map in the Italian section but i can't find any reference to them.
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Ancient History
post Jul 28 2004, 02:35 AM
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Balkans would be mostly Eastern Europe, I think.

Italy's always been fractitious; there used to be a saying that each Italian had a city that was a mother to him. The Piedmontese detest those of the lower altitudes, the plains-farmers dislike the fisher towns, the great cities like Milan, Florence and Venice are envied and decried as whores by all the smaller cities...Roman architecture is halfway between national treasures and public use. "If something lasts the test of time, it must be Roman. The artifacts of ancient Rome are not remarkable to the Italian, they are no more than another aspect of nature, no more beautiful or useful than a mountain path..."

I'd love if the old Roman roads had made a resurgence, magical or mundane.
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Prospero
post Jul 28 2004, 06:58 AM
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I really liked the church stuff in Italy. And I liked the idea of Italy splitting (again) into a bunch of city-states and smaller countries, which it has been for a lot of its history (and it shows). But I do have to agree that there really wasn't room to do the place justice. I applaud the ideas, but found the style lacking a bit. The church stuff was by far the best, IMHO, though I liked the part about the Venitian canals being cleaned up. I fell into one during Carnivale a few years ago and let me tell you, it was filthy. :dead:

One thing I did really like was GeMiTo. Cool! Maybe not realistic, but really fun. And the Five Days of Milan sounds like the title of a really great spy movie. Not to mention really good as the name of a historical event.
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Synner
post Jul 28 2004, 07:52 AM
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Space was a consideration, but the main problem was that Italy is a bit schizophrenic in nature and different regions have different "personalities". Things might have been a little different if I hadn't done the review of the Church which ate up a third of my space, but that's one of the focal elements I really pushed to have in the book from the outset.

I went for the general feel in each of the other locations some of which were concieved by locals (GeMiTo and Trieste) and I thought though some are sketchy they did convey the atmosphere of the place. Hopefully enough to give people something to bite into and develop by themselves (especially if they reference the Italian chapter with the material on the European Underworld in the openning chapter).

The references to the changes to Venices' canals obviously tie into at least one novel (guess which?) as does some of the material in the Florence/Republic of Tuscany.

Finally, this was actually the "Second" Five Days of Milan and if you check the history books you'll find that the fall of GeMiTo is more plausible than it seems with Italy's central authority gone.

BTW - The picture of the shedim coming out of the catacombs in St. Marco's Square is definitely my favorite in the book. Having stood exactly in that spot helps of course...
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Snow_Fox
post Jul 29 2004, 12:59 AM
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Yes I know the book, Leonardo also got rid of the stink.
I don't think you could have left out the church. Beyond it's influence in Italy it is a player in France and a motivator in Ireland and Aztlan, It certainly deserved the space.

I know what you mean about writing about a place. In college one night I was finishing a research paper on the American colonies with the afterword being Lexington and Concord, where it all fell apart. The next night I found myself in Concord Mass looking for dinner and in the fog realizing I was walking on the same ground I'd written about the night before, chills.
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Prospero
post Jul 29 2004, 01:58 AM
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QUOTE
Space was a consideration, but the main problem was that Italy is a bit schizophrenic in nature and different regions have different "personalities". Things might have been a little different if I hadn't done the review of the Church which ate up a third of my space, but that's one of the focal elements I really pushed to have in the book from the outset.


I totally agree that the church needed to be there. Its such a huge player in the whole world, I was definatly glad to see it here. And I think it was well done. One of my players played a "retired" New Jesuit a while back. I really wished there was more on the Order then than the few hints in Aztlan and scattered elsewhere. I was really glad to see them, along with the other orders, written up. Too bad Aztech got their revenge on Padre some time ago...

QUOTE
I went for the general feel in each of the other locations some of which were concieved by locals (GeMiTo and Trieste) and I thought though some are sketchy they did convey the atmosphere of the place. Hopefully enough to give people something to bite into and develop by themselves (especially if they reference the Italian chapter with the material on the European Underworld in the openning chapter).

The references to the changes to Venices' canals obviously tie into at least one novel (guess which?) as does some of the material in the Florence/Republic of Tuscany.

Finally, this was actually the "Second" Five Days of Milan and if you check the history books you'll find that the fall of GeMiTo is more plausible than it seems with Italy's central authority gone.


They did give something to build on. But I think you hit it on the button: the different regions do have such different personalities that doing them justice in the space provided was tough. Germany suffered the same problem, I think. Too much stuff having to be crammed into too little space.

QUOTE
BTW - The picture of the shedim coming out of the catacombs in St. Marco's Square is definitely my favorite in the book. Having stood exactly in that spot helps of course...


Definatly. When I opened the book to the developer's say and saw that pic... I loved it! It just so stylish... and the subject matter is just damn cool. The art in the book is fantastic in general. I really like that SR has tended towards pretty stylish art in the past few books - Djurdjevic did really cool stuff in Dot6W and the stuff in SoE is great, too. As long as we're talking about Italy, I also really liked the frontspiece at the beginning of the chapter. The b/w picture really captured the quality of the light like I haven't seen much in b/w pics.
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Synner
post Aug 1 2004, 05:18 PM
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QUOTE (Prospero @ Jul 29 2004, 01:58 AM)
Definatly. When I opened the book to the developer's say and saw that pic... I loved it! It just so stylish... and the subject matter is just damn cool. The art in the book is fantastic in general. I really like that SR has tended towards pretty stylish art in the past few books - Djurdjevic did really cool stuff in Dot6W and the stuff in SoE is great, too. As long as we're talking about Italy, I also really liked the frontspiece at the beginning of the chapter. The b/w picture really captured the quality of the light like I haven't seen much in b/w pics.

Obviously not everyone agrees, but I'm pretty happy with the artwork in this book overall. Even Prescott's pieces which I like but often get flak for being too out there were nice, dark and gritty. Eric Desideriu does his best SR work so far, Scherwinski was great on the cover and throughout and even MacDougall's art which is often hit and miss with me fits perfectly with the atmosphere. I'm not sure who did the Spanish chapter but the art there was also exceptional and on the mark ambient-wise.

I have to thank the artist on the Italian chapter for following my artwork suggestions and doing so with such great style and flair.
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FlakJacket
post Aug 1 2004, 07:01 PM
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QUOTE (Synner)
The picture of the shedim coming out of the catacombs in St. Marco's Square is definitely my favorite in the book. Having stood exactly in that spot helps of course...

Not having the book in front of me, who did that picture? I'm not too keen on the other picture they did in the chapter, but this one I really liked. The style and the subject just seemed to match up perfectly for it. :)
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Synner
post Aug 2 2004, 08:06 PM
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I actually don't know who they're by. It has me stumped because it looks like a slightly lighter version of Djurdjevic's new style in DotSW (ie. Lofwyr) but he isn't in the credits. Same with the art in the Spanish chapter which was very evocative, looked like Bergting's stuff to me but he's not in the credits either!
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Sepherim
post Aug 3 2004, 12:57 AM
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I know I shouldn't ask here, but since there's no post on Spain yet and I haven't received the book still. How is the cover drawing for the chapter? The one I suggested?
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Snow_Fox
post Aug 3 2004, 01:08 AM
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I'm taking my time reading each chapter so they don't blur together.
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Prospero
post Aug 3 2004, 07:41 AM
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I have no idea if its the one you suggested or not, obviously, but I really do like the frontspiece for the Spain/Euskal Herria chapter. It's not what I would think of as typical Spain, but the loneliness of the figure in the landscape of ruined builidngs and overgrown vegetation goes a long way towards capturing the feel of some of the more mystical areas of Spain. Maybe not quite as cool as the Shedim breaking through the ground, but still damn cool.
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Synner
post Aug 3 2004, 07:52 AM
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Yep, that's the one and the troll smuggler carry the load in Gijon/Canarias isn't half bad either.
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Sepherim
post Aug 3 2004, 11:50 PM
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Thanks. Doesn't seem like it's the whole picture I suggested, but it does seem like part of it. I can't wait to have the book in my hands!
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Paul
post Aug 4 2004, 01:02 AM
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Italy has been my favorite chapter so far. I am pressed for time right now, so this will be brief. I can sum my enthusiasm for Italy up in three words : Catholic Church & Venice.

I could run a campaign from here forever.

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toturi
post Nov 17 2004, 03:43 AM
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I was digging up something for a new run. I was looking for something more concrete on the Swiss Guard in SR rather than IRL. In particular, how has the recruitment been changed in the 2060s? With an increase in size, I do not think the Swiss Guard can afford to recruit solely from Switzerland alone. And with the Pope pushing for metahuman equality, I do not think that there would be a overt human-only policy in the Guard, the primary purpose of the Guard is to protect the Pope after all. And it wouldn't do for the principal to be pissed at you.
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audun
post Nov 17 2004, 03:25 PM
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QUOTE (toturi)
I was digging up something for a new run. I was looking for something more concrete on the Swiss Guard in SR rather than IRL. In particular, how has the recruitment been changed in the 2060s? With an increase in size, I do not think the Swiss Guard can afford to recruit solely from Switzerland alone. And with the Pope pushing for metahuman equality, I do not think that there would be a overt human-only policy in the Guard, the primary purpose of the Guard is to protect the Pope after all. And it wouldn't do for the principal to be pissed at you.

There's some comments on the Swiss Guard in the Switzerland chapter. Don't have them handy, but I believe that it would be human only due to the Swiss sponsorship.
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Synner
post Nov 17 2004, 08:39 PM
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The Guard is currently still human only partially because of the Swiss patronage and partly because it's also an administrative tool for conservative dominated Curia.
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toturi
post Nov 18 2004, 02:59 AM
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Audun, there is only a small comment about Zurich Investments and the Swiss Gaurd, but no overt comment on the recruitment of the SG. But ok, only humans in the Swiss Guard, no problem.
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