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> SR as a generic system, Anyone use it as such?
Tyrae
post Jul 28 2004, 03:22 AM
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Dumpshock,

I've been thining useing SR as a generic system. It can easily be explained as a few Deckers hacking into an MMORPG, such as FFXI, and playing a fantasy game useing the rules of SR.
I don't have much experiance with the system at all, nor with the ShadowRun setting for that matter, but i'd love to give this a try. What do you guys/gals think of the idea? Has it been done before and if so, how well did it work out?

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Tyrae ~ Fallen Child of Magdalen

VICTORY NOT VENGEANCE
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Sepherim
post Jul 28 2004, 03:34 AM
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I thought about running a Matrix (the movie) game using the SR rules. They seemed to fit, but I never got to test it.
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Ol' Scratch
post Jul 28 2004, 03:38 AM
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I've used it in a fantasy setting before and it worked well. You may have to fidget around with some things to make them fit a particular genre, but the fact that it covers just about every major aspect of a game (combat, computers, vehicles, magic, and high technology) means it can cover just about any genre, too.

I can just imagine how much fun it would be in a Torg or RIFTS-like setting myself. :)
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hyzmarca
post Jul 28 2004, 06:02 AM
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I used a very streamlined version of SR rules in a moden noir style game once. No magic, no matrix, and I completly gutted the weapon power and armor rules, replacing them with a streamlined but more realistic rule that compared armor type to ammo type to determine penetration. It worked pretty well, although I wasn't able to continue that game as long as I had hoped

SR is a good system a a game with more depth than a genreic hack and slash, even the most powerful characters can be killed by an average street punk if they get too cocky.
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RedmondLarry
post Jul 28 2004, 07:11 AM
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While I think that Shadowrun's magic system would carry well to a fantasy setting, I think the lack of cyberware in a fantasy would change the balance between muscle and magic from what we have now. If a magician can easily produce the equivalent of a heavy pistol shot in a world without pistols ...
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Shev
post Jul 28 2004, 08:14 AM
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QUOTE (OurTeam)
If a magician can easily produce the equivalent of a heavy pistol shot in a world without pistols ...

Meh, he'll just get wasted by the troll using a big fragging bow with black-powder explosive arrowheads :grinbig:

Or, maybe the dikoated ally spirit manifested in a catapult will get to him first. And no, it won't have sex with him. :rotfl:

[EDIT]And no comments on how the hell you can dikoat something in a fantasy setting :P[/EDIT]
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Ol' Scratch
post Jul 28 2004, 08:30 AM
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QUOTE (OurTeam)
While I think that Shadowrun's magic system would carry well to a fantasy setting, I think the lack of cyberware in a fantasy would change the balance between muscle and magic from what we have now. If a magician can easily produce the equivalent of a heavy pistol shot in a world without pistols ...

You mean as opposed to the countless other fantasy settings that have magic that's ten times more insane than Shadowrun's yet have no cyberware to speak of?
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MrSandman666
post Jul 28 2004, 09:20 AM
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I can only speak before the background of my very limited AD&D (yes, 2nd Edition AD&D) and MERS (Midde-Earth Roleplaying System - very similar to Rolemaster). In those systems - at least on beginning levels (i.e. anything I've ever played) mages are severely limited. They always need at least one or two warriors around them to stay alive. If faced by a warrior they could probably wound him but they wouldn't survive the fight. Usually mages in fantasy games are limited to a small number of relatively weak spells per day, either by use of magic points (or mana or whatever) or through the incredibly silly method of memorizing spells before you go to bed. Additionaly mages are limited by a ridiculously weak physique and strong limitations on armor and weaponry. Later, when the characters reach more epic levels, the mages sooner or later start to outpower the warriors, but by then the warriors have all their neat Nordic Longsword of Gore +8 and their Plate Mail of Reflection +12 and their Mage Killer Robe of Protection that negates all spells thrown at them or whatever. So, in general, magic is everything but overpowered in these games.
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Cray74
post Jul 28 2004, 10:15 AM
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QUOTE (Tyrae)
Dumpshock,

I've been thining useing SR as a generic system. It can easily be explained as a few Deckers hacking into an MMORPG, such as FFXI, and playing a fantasy game useing the rules of SR.
I don't have much experiance with the system at all, nor with the ShadowRun setting for that matter, but i'd love to give this a try. What do you guys/gals think of the idea? Has it been done before and if so, how well did it work out?

I've made several adoptions of SR for Mechwarrior roleplaying. Only one got past character creation, but the idea seemed to work. MW2's skill systems and means of translating skill/attribute combinations into Battletech piloting/gunnery ratings worked pretty well for SR, too.

Of course, you had to strip out all the SR setting features.
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Abstruse
post Jul 28 2004, 10:51 AM
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The only problem with using the SR system as a system for another game world is that you pretty much HAVE to have both magic and cyberwear or the system loses its balance. Cyber balances out Magic, so if you take out one then the other dominates the game. If you take both out, then you have very powerful PCs that don't have too much variance in their abilities. So you're limited to a sci-fi/fantasy hybrid.

However, I had good luck transforming it into a Cowboy Bebop/Outlaw Star type world where there was both high technology and fantasy. I had to drastically limit the types of mages to fit the world (more psychic-type and Easter-style magic than Western-style Fireball machines), but it worked out well.

The Abstruse One
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Cray74
post Jul 28 2004, 11:30 AM
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QUOTE (Abstruse)
If you take both out, then you have very powerful PCs that don't have too much variance in their abilities.  So you're limited to a sci-fi/fantasy hybrid.

I haven't had a problem with MW conversions when I remove cyber and magic. I used a variant of the priority system, introducing new priorities like "Social Status / Phenotype" (for IS and Clan PCs, respectively) and "Battlemech / Vehicle" that kept players juggling stats and creating balanced PCs.

And, of course, there's that basic GMing skill applicable to any game system: PC approval. If the PC looks too varied from the group norm, send it back for revision and give the player a better idea of what would work best with the group.
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RangerJoe
post Jul 28 2004, 01:29 PM
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The most entertaining game I have ever been part of was a "rocker" adventure using SR3 rules, sans magic, sans cybertech, in a modern setting. The three players were the manager, the lighting tech, and a generic roadie for a "Josie and the Pussycats"-esque rock band. For lack of a better word, the game rocked.

SR's success-based system and fairly simple mechanics for most mundane details of life made the game flow quickly and easily.

...and there's always karma pool for when you botch the ettiquete test to begin wooing the lady rocker of your dreams....
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Arethusa
post Jul 28 2004, 02:05 PM
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SR really doesn't hold up well as a generic system. The entire initiative system is built around augmentation and doesn't even passingly convincingly reflect normal humanity. Melee combat also needs a rework if you plan on running a game with a lot of it; it holds up fine in a world where it's second to firearms, but when it's front and center, it's far too abstracted to carry much weight. It's doable, yes, but you're better off if you either rewrite huge chunks of the system or just use something more appropriate.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jul 28 2004, 02:05 PM
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My "Medieval Fantasy Shadowrun" ruleset is still undergoing change. Just yesterday I made major changes to the way melee combat tests are rolled. There's no doubt that the system works great for a number of different settings, for many reasons mentioned above.

The game balance effects of removing cyberware from SR have been discussed at least here.
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Arethusa
post Jul 28 2004, 02:18 PM
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Just to clarify, I'm not saying it's not doable, but it requires far more work to adapt than any truly or even very broadly applicable system should.
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Tyrae
post Jul 28 2004, 03:20 PM
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grr, I just whent to post a big message when of course internet explorer fails and crashes to desktop!

Anyway, I think (whoever it was) has a good point about the balance being an issue. However, I don't think that'd be TOO much of a problem. Even in a fantasy type setting (fantasy, not medivel historical), things like bioware can be explained. Such as, Clockwork or Steam-power technology. Even mages, with their history in constructing Autamotons, could play a major role in it. I'm certain that the high sergens and doctors have messed around with prostetics.
It's only a matter of time before magic gets introduced and you have a steam-powered fist attached to your arm, as strong as 50 men or a Clockwork eye implant that shifts crystal lenses when commanded to do so through some arcane nural net.

Tyrae ~ Fallen Child of Magdalen

VICTORY NOT VENGEANCE
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Cray74
post Jul 28 2004, 03:35 PM
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QUOTE (Arethusa)
Just to clarify, I'm not saying it's not doable, but it requires far more work to adapt than any truly or even very broadly applicable system should.


That hasn't been my experience. It converted pretty quickly. In fact, when some BT/MW players requested a re-post of my rules, I ended up recreating the changes out of whole cloth in about half an hour. Or maybe an hour.

But, then, I don't have particularly strong issues about initiative and melee systems. They get the job done.

(Okay, that's not true, I do have strong opinions about SR3's initiative system, but that's another thread.)
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GrinderTheTroll
post Jul 28 2004, 04:23 PM
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QUOTE (MrSandman666)
Usually mages in fantasy games are limited to a small number of relatively weak spells per day, either by use of magic points (or mana or whatever) or through the incredibly silly method of memorizing spells before you go to bed. Additionaly mages are limited by a ridiculously weak physique and strong limitations on armor and weaponry.

That's one of the coolest things I like about about SR was the fact that everyone was more or less equal right off the bat. Casters would be more useful longer as long as they managed to avoid massive drain, and even if they did blow it, they could try their hand with a pistol.

All classes have a need for Karma and :nuyen:, lots of ways to spend both that make you more and more powerful, which is nice considering most RPG's seem to fall apart beyond just "getting xp and levels".
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Cray74
post Jul 28 2004, 05:05 PM
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QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
That's one of the coolest things I like about about SR was the fact that everyone was more or less equal right off the bat. Casters would be more useful longer as long as they managed to avoid massive drain, and even if they did blow it, they could try their hand with a pistol.

Indeed. And unlike many games, you have the opportunity to make a starting character weak or powerful as it suits the campaign, just by deciding how many skill and attribute points to spend - or not. In SR, you can make "starting characters" who are professionals with very good, almost world-class skills that can be explained by natural talent or years of prior experience.
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GrinderTheTroll
post Jul 28 2004, 05:16 PM
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We did try and make an all "Old-world" like setting with SR rules, no guns, no tech, more like Middle-Earth type stuff or AD&D if you will.

We made some other adjustments by playing with alignment, but it used virtues (sorta like the Ultima games) for helping folks make moral character decisions.

Was easy to play since we knew all the rules, the only problem where the overpowering aspect of mages, so we made drain codes higher but it never felt right.

It's a good system, we use it as the basis (or parts of it at least) for many other projects we try.
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Orient
post Jul 28 2004, 06:21 PM
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(This post was created entirely without the aid of coffee. Be warned)

I've used the SR system for several styles of game, now.

We started with a Lankhmar game - no cyberware, obviously, and magic was severely limited. Most magicians had to use ritual magic for a majority of their spells, and while you *could* toss manabolts and such, it was generally more effective to swing a sword.

There were plans for another high-fantasy game that never actually started, but the conversion from SR looked really promising. All characters, as heroes, were PhysAds (or Physical Magicians) and started with a Magic rating of 2 or 3. We were developing Maneuvers for armed combat, and had thrown around the idea of having spells be less variable - Mana Dart, for example, could be cast at any Force, but only had a base Damage Level of Light. More powerful spells were simply less available.. There was some talk of having some high powered Adept Abilities and Spells that would be way past an acceptable power level for normal SR - teleportation spells were the obvious starting point..

There was a very brief horror game that we ran using the SR system. Call of Cthulu set 1500 years in the future. Combat cyberware was *severely* restricted, and other cyberware was heavily encouraged. Magic was present, but slightly less obvious and adapted to be known only by crazies, strange college professors, and the like.

Adarael is currently running a space game using SR rules - space ships, severely restricted combat cyberware, and no magic. There are psychics and newly-encountered alien races, and humanity has enough variance to have some stat differences. Weapons are more high-tech, but generally have the same stats as regular SR weapons - armor tech has progressed as fast as weapon tech (and it'd be a sever game balance issue to say that standard sidearms do 16S damage and most clothing is armored to 8/6, for one thing).

SR rules worked just fine for all of these...
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