Grenades! Options

[GrinderTheTroll]

So I was re-reading the section in SR3 about grenades and over-pressure damage and realized that I've apparently been doing grenade over-pressure damage all wrong.

We would allow the over-pressure damage off barriers and such to inflict additional sets of wounds that would require additional damage tests.

After reading SR3, it appears that only the Power Level in increased due to over-pressure, requiring only *one* damage test, but making it harder to resist.

Does it seem odd that a grenade at point-blank range can at best only do severe damage?

Any thoughts or insight, or is this just how its done?

[mfb]

that's what the optional staging rules are for. you roll half the grenade's damage against TN 4, and use that to stage damage up.

[BitBasher]

Agreed, that makes point blank grenades do a wee bit more than S.

[Ol' Scratch]

Hmm? Your Throwing (or whatever other relevant skill is being used) skill stages grenade damage just like normal. No optional rules required.

[BitBasher]

A lot of people do not play it that way, your throwing skill gets the grenade closer to the target. In that regard grenades are not like other thrown weapons.

[Ol' Scratch]

I'm just saying those are the standard rules for grenades. Anything else is a variant or optional rule diverging from that. Lemme find my book and I'll supply a page reference and quote.

SR3 p. 119, Grenade/Explosives Damage: "Under standard rules, the destructive force of grenades and other explosives are dependant on the Throwing or Demolitions Skill of the attacking character. This arrangement reflects the fact that a better throw or clearer detonation will improve the destructive force of an explosion."

[Cursedsoul]

I think we're talking more along the lines of a guy standing in a room with a grenade at his feet would only take serious, not Chucky McChuckerson tossing a grenade with expert precision. and landing it in such a way as to deal maximum damage.

[Ol' Scratch]

Ah.

[GrinderTheTroll]

[Ol' Scratch]

The optional rule is in the next paragraph after my quote above on page 119.

[GrinderTheTroll]

Sheesh, this book as *too-many* rules sometimes, thanks for keeping me humble.

[RedmondLarry]

As Dr. Funkenstein quotes, above, standard rules have successes by the person throwing/firing the grenade not only make the grenade end up closer to the desired point, but also stage up damage.

Our team has switched to the optional rule -- making grenades much deadlier. If "chunky salsa" results in a single roll against 40M Stun, the optional rules appear to say that the GM will roll 20 dice (target 4) to have the explosive stage itself up. It makes characters fear grenades in an appropriate way, and Chunky is Chunky.

[GrinderTheTroll]

/agree 100% OurTeam, fear of a grenade should be a top-priority!

My runners love nasty weapons like grenades, assault cannons, APDS ammo, until I threaten to use them on my next batch of Heavy Response Personnel.

[Apathy]

I always hated the idea that successes could stage damage as well as reducing scatter. Just never made sense to me - the spray of schrapnel from the explosion is not going to be distributed any differently, no matter how you throw it. The optional rules seem much better.

[GrinderTheTroll]

Yeah we like the idea of your skill being only your ability to place the explosive and letting the grenade improve on its own damage.

We looked at from this perspective: A defaulting player landing a grenade 1-meter away is no different that a skilled player landing it 1-meter away, so why should successes stage up the damage? We agreed that the skill simply allows for better placement, while the grenade itself does the damage, so we opted to use the Optional Rules for resolving damage. Odds are the skilled vs. defaulting player will get it closer and yield more damage.

Viva house rules!

[mfb]

i dunno. staging from the thrower's successes could represent stuff like cooking the timer, which would give the target less time to get out of the way; landing the grenade in a corner, so that more of the force is reflected towards the target, etcetera.

[GrinderTheTroll]

I suppose looking at it in terms of it exploding at some "ideal" spot, like above the target or perhaps 1 success is close, but 4 successes in really-really close could help explain the staging better. Hmm...

[RedmondLarry]

One reason I don't like the standard staging rules is because 4 successes in tossing a grenade stage up against ALL targets within the blast area, even if the grenade is still not exploding where you want it to.

Another is the munchkin with an MGL 6 grenade launcher (with grenades set to explode on impact) that says "I AIM once to lower my TN, and shoot at a stationary target to lower my TN again, and therefore I have 10 successes to stage up against everyone in the blast, even the guy 14 meters away."

I prefer the optional grenade rule.

[mfb]

i've met that munchkin. it's reached the point where i specifically disallow him from using grenades at all. and i don't, in my games, use thrower/shooter successes to stage (despite what i said above).

[GrinderTheTroll]

[Necro Tech]

I agree with most of you guys, successes only bring it closer to target. I love the optional rule of grenades staging themselves because from everything I've heard (and had my grandfather tell me) explosives in general are unbelievably random. Soldiers have survived almost unscathed when grenades explode at their feet and conversely some poor grunt dies because a piece of shrapnel lodges in his carrotid from 30 ft away.

[Cain]

Don't forget about height and aim. There's a world of difference between a grenade within one meter and one that landed on your crotch. The shrapnel pattern is also hard to predict as well.

Generally, I stick with the official rules. I haven't had an issue with munchkins and grenades, not since the unfortunate flying physmage incident. Given the amazingly odd luck that tends to show up at my tables, no one wants to take the chance it could happen again.

[Seafog]

Two ideas:
1) Only leftover successes stage the damage after scatter is zero, or
2) half successes to scatter and half to staging.
I think the second one comes closest to the random nature of grenades, you could get close or far from your target, but if you got 3 successes, that could be enough to stage to deadly but with lots of scatter left over so targets could dodge or be herded. Thoughts? Comments?

I don't think reduced TN for aiming at a spot should reduce TN for damaging the targets around the spot. Maybe unmodified TN successes could apply to staging, and modified TN successes could apply to scatter (this is for that MGL6 munchkin). I'm also worried about the optional rule making grenades too deadly/effective (even canon shadowtalk says grenades are random and very hard to use effectively), it seems to give up to 5, 6 or more dice, free, for staging, and you have to roll for each target individually, not very efficient.

Now for the reason I searched out this thread. I have a conjurer that, due to the rules of the skill system, has Launch Weapons 6 but no other combat skills (he has quick 1, int 6)(I much prefered the old way where skills were not lockstepped with attributes). So he's running around with an MGL6 w/stun grenades. What accessories can the MGL use? I keep reading the rules and comming up with alternating interpretations. Help!
I'm also wondering if you people think it's feasible to add a rangefinder (and a display) to a nonsmart MGL and tie it in to allow airbursting grenades? Normally you need a smartgun system (which my character does not have) to do this, but I don't understand why. Or is this a munchkin idea?
Thanks for your time gang.

[RedmondLarry]

[xizor]

in reference to the range finder for grenade launchers, if you check page 32 in the CC. you will find the grenade link :grinbig: it also allows you to air time the grenades.

also unless i am reading the rules wrong a grenade launcher with grenade link will always land grenades within 6 meters without any sucesses, and within 2 meters with one sucess