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> Using 'older' weapon designs
Voran
post Jul 30 2004, 07:50 AM
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I was just curious to how many players arm their runners with older weapon designs. In particular I was thinking of guns. For example, my only active character at the moment, uses a M14 (check Raygun's site, its under Assault Rifles built by Springfield). Its a nice gun, though in my character's case, he's used Cannon Companion build rules to shorten the barrel and improve base recoil compensation.

It does respectable single shot fire, and since its already a base 9S damage, when you start rocking with burst fire or FA, it can get pretty dangerous. If I read Raygun's site correctly, the M14 has been in service since 1957 :)

I credit Raygun's site alot for my character's use of weapons based in an 'older' era. The stats he gives them seem reasonable (and possible through CC creation rules) and seem more effective for my char than your standard weapons found in current SR. Plus, it helps to have pictures :) I like weapons that also look cool.
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Fygg Nuuton
post Jul 30 2004, 08:05 AM
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well the colt m1911 is pretty damn old in 2004, using modern weapons in 2064 doesnt seem too odd to me

EDIT: also raygun doesnt use the CC, but a custom set of rules that work much nicer, especially with his system
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Quix
post Jul 30 2004, 10:29 AM
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I had aplayer who was a bit of a history buff. He always tried to talk up how damaging older weapons were by giving examples, and then wanting to have his character rebuild them because he saw them as more effective the SR's guns. If I'd known of Raygun's site at the time it might not have been such a big deal but as it was it turned out to be really annoying.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jul 30 2004, 12:02 PM
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QUOTE (Quix)
I had aplayer who was a bit of a history buff. He always tried to talk up how damaging older weapons were by giving examples, and then wanting to have his character rebuild them because he saw them as more effective the SR's guns.

You should never believe any of that sort of thing. Some people seem to think 17th century muskets have greater effective ranges and do more damage to humans and objects than a .50BMG rifle, and are more accurate than this. They seem to forget that there's a reason why firearms are constantly being upgraded. When someone shows you a picture of a human having been shot in the chest with a 7.92mm Mauser, you just need to find a picture of a human having been shot in the chest with a 4.7x33mm OH 12 times. Etc.

I'm sure AK-47s/AKMs/AK-74s are still around in large numbers in the 2060s, as will the M16-family weapons be. There are dozens and hundreds of millions of those weapons, they are decent designs, and they are reliable enough to still work in 60 years. I wouldn't bet on the M14 aging as well...

You should definitely not simply pick out weapons from Raygun's site and use them in an otherwise canon campaign. You could fuck up game balance. For example, a fully recoil compensated M14(/G3/FAL/etc) sounds like a really, really bad idea.

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Jul 30 2004, 12:07 PM
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Ol' Scratch
post Jul 30 2004, 04:00 PM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
You should never believe any of that sort of thing. Some people seem to think 17th century muskets have greater effective ranges and do more damage to humans and objects than a .50BMG rifle, and are more accurate than this. They seem to forget that there's a reason why firearms are constantly being upgraded. When someone shows you a picture of a human having been shot in the chest with a 7.92mm Mauser, you just need to find a picture of a human having been shot in the chest with a 4.7x33mm OH 12 times. Etc.

You know, it's statements like that that really baffle me about your arguments in other threads. On one hand, you don't seem to have a problem with firearms technology improving significantly. On the other, the opposite seems true. I just don't get it.

But, yeah, Raygun's list of guns were never designed to be balanced with a standard game. There's a lot of balance busters on his site including FA heavy pistols, firearms that fire the equivalence of APDS using regular ammo, pistols that would take down a heavily armored vehicle in one shot, and all other kinds of craziness from a game balance point of view.
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Arethusa
post Jul 30 2004, 04:57 PM
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Both are true. Advancement in firearms is, in a lot of ways, somewhat unique. It has progressed dramatically over the past 100 years, but a gun made 200 year ago can still kill you just as well today as it could then. There's a dichotomy, yes, but that's only weird if you oversimplify.

Raygun's guns really aren't unbalanced in and of themselves; they're just unbalanced if you try and mesh them with canon weapons, which function by a completely different metric (namely, insanity). Any imbalances purely within Raygun's guns, however, are pretty much existent in real life, too. That's worth clarifying.
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GrinderTheTroll
post Jul 30 2004, 05:42 PM
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QUOTE (Quix)
I had aplayer who was a bit of a history buff. He always tried to talk up how damaging older weapons were by giving examples, and then wanting to have his character rebuild them because he saw them as more effective the SR's guns. If I'd known of Raygun's site at the time it might not have been such a big deal but as it was it turned out to be really annoying.

One of the reasons why the US Civil War was so bloody was that weapons technology had surpassed medical technology. Rifles shot something like .50-calibre slugs and battelfield docs could barely do much more than amputate and many would die from infection. Not that I would want to get shot at anytime with a .50-calibre slug, but I'd hazzard a guess my chances would be better today than 140 years ago.

In SR terms, there are many aspects of weapons that are not accounted for and SR does it's best to balance the metrics it has for the sake of game play. But yeah it's hard to want some really cool looking gun that does less damage than on that's cheaper, with a bigger clip.
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Kagetenshi
post Jul 30 2004, 05:52 PM
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There's also the fact that the bullets of yesteryear tended to be bigger and slower, which certainly ups the intimidation factor.

Hey, if a player wants a 3D rifle with an effective range of ~40 meters, by all means give it to them. How many complex actions does it take to reload one of those?

~J
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GrinderTheTroll
post Jul 30 2004, 05:55 PM
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The funny thing is Kagetenshi runners might freak out thinking its some esoteric BFG9000 or something since they've probably never seen it before, LOL.
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Kagetenshi
post Jul 30 2004, 06:08 PM
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So true. Get a large, modern-looking metal framework, a few barrels worth of old-school musket action, and some special effects gear. They'll never know what hit them 'till you stop to reload :)

~J
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mfb
post Jul 30 2004, 06:20 PM
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the problem, doc, is that firearms in shadowrun haven't improved significantly--they've just changed, usually with no discernable benefit. this isn't a case of dinosaurs giving way to mammals; it's a case of dinosaurs giving way to trilobites--and not just any trilobites, trilobites with non-functional wings.
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Arethusa
post Jul 30 2004, 06:29 PM
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Well, there's also that.

Also, just popping in to mention that really big, really soft, really heavy, and really slow projectiles tended to create really nasty wounds that would not have been possible with faster projectiles.
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mfb
post Jul 30 2004, 06:56 PM
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sure--when they don't miss completely, when the target isn't outside your range, when there's no armor involved, and when your firearm doesn't blow up in your face.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jul 30 2004, 09:15 PM
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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
You know, it's statements like that that really baffle me about your arguments in other threads. On one hand, you don't seem to have a problem with firearms technology improving significantly. On the other, the opposite seems true. I just don't get it.

The opposite: I have a problem with firearms tech improving significantly?

I'll try to clear up my stance, then. The fluff and rules of Shadowrun imply that major advancement has not occurred in the field of small arms technology -- not enough to change the basic principle of rapidly expanding gases from a burning chemical propelling a solid (/expanding/fragmenting/etc) projectile out of a rifled barrel at certain velocities, and so on. This hasn't really changed (apart from minor details, like the rifling) for several hundred years. Because I cannot be bothered to think about all the things that might change that, I won't include any change that major into my games.

Thus I suggest people go with what is known about such firearms IRL, add some nice tricks that are impossible/too expensive/very rare in 2004, and spice up with a bit of artistic license. That's just about the most logical way to handle firearms in SR in a realistic yet pretty close to canon manner. It allows you to use many of the rules and even more of the fluff of canon SR guns, yet it (mostly) makes sense, allows you to use all of the readily available data on RL firearms, and so on.

None of that matters if you don't really value weapons that are logical, or if you don't know and don't want to know anything about how firearms actually work. Likewise, if you can find a way to reasonably describe firearms that are based on technology very different from the stuff existing IRL and yet fits rather seamlessly with SR firearms rules and fluff, go for it.

Does that make any sense? I can't tell, too tired. Arethusa put it pretty well.

QUOTE (Arethusa)
Also, just popping in to mention that really big, really soft, really heavy, and really slow projectiles tended to create really nasty wounds that would not have been possible with faster projectiles.

Well, to be fair, if you could propel that really big, really soft, really heavy bullet faster, it would tend to do a nastier wound.
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Abstruse
post Jul 31 2004, 11:00 AM
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A trained person can reload and fire a Civil War-era rifle three times in 10 seconds (I've seen it done), so SS Simple Action reload seems appropriate. This wasn't just some random Civil War reenactor though, this was a Ph.D in American History that wrote several books on 17th-19th century firearms, so you can up it some if you want.

One thing to note, however, is that the old rifles were HORRIBLE for aiming. Sure, they were rifled by the time of the Civil War rather than smooth bore, but they were all done more or less by hand and many had uneven rifling, thus causing the bullet to spin funny. That's not even mentioning that many of the ball rounds they used were lop-sided and the edge of a ball in contact with the rifling is MUCH less than the contact of a modern shaped bullet.

For the time, though, those were some very accurate guns. If you look at fatality figures for the Revolutionary War (smooth-bore rifles from the British and a mix of smooth-bore and rifled guns from the Colonials) vs. the Civil War, it's just insane.

Just some food for thought.

The Abstruse One
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jul 31 2004, 12:22 PM
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QUOTE (Abtruse)
If you look at fatality figures for the Revolutionary War (smooth-bore rifles from the British and a mix of smooth-bore and rifled guns from the Colonials) vs. the Civil War, it's just insane.

And then you can compare those to the fatality figures of the early WWI battles when they still used the same tactics as in those two wars. In WW2, a large battlefield would have annihilated a division a day if tactics had not evolved. With modern weapons, regardless of how many guys you send off running against the enemy, every last one would be dead in a matter of seconds.

All those weapons kill. WWI-era weapons -- like Colt M1911s, Colt and S&W revolvers, Bergman MP18s, SMLEIIIs, Mauser G98s, etc -- kill brilliantly. But none of the innovation is lost, and new weapons just keep getting better and better. I think even most M1911 fans would rather pick a customized, brand spanking new gun than an original.
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Link
post Jul 31 2004, 01:57 PM
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QUOTE
The fluff and rules of Shadowrun imply that major advancement has not occurred in the field of small arms technology-- not enough to change the basic principle of rapidly expanding gases from a burning chemical propelling a solid (/expanding/fragmenting/etc) projectile out of a rifled barrel at certain velocities, and so on.


What about the AVS? The gun so good they tried to ban it. :smile:
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BitBasher
post Jul 31 2004, 09:55 PM
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QUOTE (Link)
QUOTE
The fluff and rules of Shadowrun imply that major advancement has not occurred in the field of small arms technology-- not enough to change the basic principle of rapidly expanding gases from a burning chemical propelling a solid (/expanding/fragmenting/etc) projectile out of a rifled barrel at certain velocities, and so on.


What about the AVS? The gun so good they tried to ban it. :smile:

And where they failed, I suceeded in banning it! :D
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Ol' Scratch
post Jul 31 2004, 10:19 PM
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I just changed its base Damage Code to 6M(f) [9S(f) in BF] and, lo and behold, it just became a balanced Machine Pistol that's still a nice but not as broken as it is as a Heavy Pistol.
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Fygg Nuuton
post Jul 31 2004, 11:25 PM
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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
I just changed its base Damage Code to 6M(f) [9S(f) in BF] and, lo and behold, it just became a balanced Machine Pistol that's still a nice but not as broken as it is as a Heavy Pistol.

i DAREd to say no to that drug induced hallucination, but i may take your ruling so i don't look as bad :)
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Arethusa
post Aug 1 2004, 08:17 AM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Well, to be fair, if you could propel that really big, really soft, really heavy bullet faster, it would tend to do a nastier wound.

I'm not sure I agree. Shoot it faster and it's just a shotgun slug. Slow it down and it dances around inside you, riding bone and muscle grain for a rocking good time!
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Austere Emancipa...
post Aug 1 2004, 11:35 AM
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QUOTE (Arethusa)
Slow it down and it dances around inside you, riding bone and muscle grain for a rocking good time!

While I'm sure this is a Humorous Exaggeration, I'm a bit sceptical about any truly dangerous projectile "riding bone and muscle grain" to any significant degree. It damn well better crush right through bone if you plan on killing people quick with it, and how anything that follows muscle grain can expect to cause a permanent wound cavity of a significant size is beyond me.

Also, you'll be hard pressed to find an easy to handle, not too big, heavy or painfully recoiling modern weapon that causes wounds more nasty than a shotgun -- except for a shotgun with shot at close range, of course.
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mfb
post Aug 1 2004, 04:53 PM
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riding... muscle grain.
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Arethusa
post Aug 1 2004, 05:19 PM
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The thing about following muscle grain is that it tends to rip large tissues apart. As a smaller projectile, it would just cause a lot of bleeding and superficial wounding, but at .72 caliber, instead of punching clean through tissue and bone as a modern weapon will almost always do, a bullet hitting you in the upper leg could impact the bone and ride from your pelvic area to our ankle, shattering every bone and joint along the way, not to mention stripping tissue all along. Crude medical techniques weren't the only reason there were so many amputations; in a lot of of ways, it was crude medical techniques combined with very complex wounds.
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mfb
post Aug 1 2004, 06:00 PM
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i, personally, have never heard of a bullet skipping off of bone and following the grain of the muscle. i'm not seeing anything like that in most of my google-searching, either--most of what i see talks about civil war bullets shattering bone on their way through (which, in and of itself, makes for a pretty complex wound).

the most relevant page i've found in google is this conversation between several black powder hunters. it talks about penetration and muzzle velocity and delivering energy to the target, but nothing about ricocheting along muscle grain lines.
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