Racial Cost at Creation, Lack of Balance? Options

[Tomahawk]

Ok I've been pondering this a bit and wanted to get some third party input. The specifics I use are with the point based generation but they could apply just as well to the priority system.

There seems to me to be a bit of inequity in the racial point costs at creation. Specifically the penalty for being an Elf seems to be too large for the benefit the player gains by being an elf. Elves gain minimal bonuses for being an elf and the cost seems to outweigh the benefit.

Here is a break down of the base races:

Elf +1 Quick, + 2 Charisma, Low Light. Net bonus attributes 3. Bonus ability 1
Ork +3 Body, +2 Strength, -1 Charisma, -1 Intelligence, Low Light. Net 3 Bonus 1
Dwarf +1 Body, +2 Strength, +1 Willpower, thermographic, Resist Disease/Toxin. Net 4 Bonus 2
Troll +5 Body, -1 quickness, +4 strength, -2 Charisma, -2 Int, Thermo, Dermal Armor, Reach. Net 4 Bonus 3.

Now obviously Troll should be the most expensive. But from this Dwarf should fall in line as the second most or the secondary most expensive alternative.

I guess it seems like the Elf gets penalized for no particular good reason. I know they have longer lives but when has that ever really come into play in Shadowrun? I imagine it is to keep them rare but they don't seem like a slightly gimped up version of what a human could do with the same points in the books...

[Grimtooth]

:grinbig:

Wait for it.....

[Odin]

Thats because we hate the pointy eared dandelion eaters!

but in all seriousness they can make crazy mages and faces I mean 8 charisma???!!!?? from what I can see both elves and trolls are top of the foodchain ones big mean and scary(highest strength and Bod) and ones pretty and dainty :S (Highest Quickness and Charisma and no penalties!)

[Grimtooth]

yes that's true. Scary faces but no better mages or shamans.

8 charisma for the elf vs 7 willpower for the dwarf

way better at tossing killer spells than the elf.

[TheScamp]

Not all penalties/bonuses on certain races are stat-related.

[Grimtooth]

now we get into the racism part of the equation.

Unless you REALLY play it up, its not a penalty.

[Ol' Scratch]

For elves and dwarves, the difference in cost is more of a popularity contest than a game balance one. Elves are "too popular" so putting them Priority C helps keep their numbers relatively limited, whereas dwarves (despite having some overall great benefits) aren't as popular, so they're cheaper at Priority D.

Trolls and orks are seperated for the opposite reason; game balance. If they had the same costs, more people who prefer to build characters based on their stats would probably play a troll (which are eight times more rare than an ork) over an ork. So that's why they have a disparity there.

Just as an aside, you left out the biggest penalty for a dwarf and one of the biggest ones for the troll: Dwarves have to pay +10% for much of their equipment to be adjusted for their size, and trolls have to pay +25%.

Here's also a better breakdown for an elf's "net cost:"

Bonus Attribute Points: 3 (6 Build Points, even though they should cost more since Humans can only get a single attribute over 6 with this edge).
Exceptional Attribute Points: 3 (6 Build Points, even though the Charisma one should cost more since Humans can only apply EAP once per attribute).
Low-Light Vision: 2 Build Points
Bad Karma: -5 Build Points
Racism: ~-1 Build Point
Net Total: 8+ Build Points
Actual Cost: 10 Build Points

So they're basically paying less than 2 Build Points for the ability to have two more Bonus Attribute Points and one extra level of Exceptional Attribute Point applied over a human. Don't really see the problem there.

[Grimtooth]

That's a good breakdown of why elves cost 10 pts to play, according to 3e rules.

Tomahawk? What to you think?

Are player scum? Can we REALLY trust them?

[TheScamp]

[Odin]

[Grimtooth]

yes Odin they do.

But if we look at only the base cost of 10 pts vs 5 pts, Dwarves the best if you're on a budget.


As for the racism issue, if your players commonly refer to each other as ugly trog and tree hugger or one of your players street name is Norm because he is a human, bias coming from an NPC doesn't really mean anything.

Unless, it the Humanis goons and 20 or their closest friends.

[Odin]

[nezumi]

Tomahawk, if you ever get the chance, check out the cost for making a meta in 1st edition... Priority A regardless of race, suffers racism AND a random allergy. 2nd edition they took out the random allergy. Be glad you live in the diverse and politically correct 3rd edition.

[Tomahawk]

[Ol' Scratch]

Feel free to adjust the costs however you like. It's your game. The rules are just a guideline. :)

[Tomahawk]

[TheScamp]

[Odin]

[Grimtooth]

Actually its MY game.

If Tomahawk wants to run a racially biased game with new house rule....

I could use a break :spin:

/edit for spelling

[TheScamp]

[Smiley]

The elf cost is one of the things that irks me the most about Shadowrun. Especially when compared to dwarves. If it was only me running our campaign and we were back at the beginning, I'd have inverted them.

[Ol' Scratch]

In my book, it's the cost for trolls that are really crippling. Sure, they can be monsters in combat, but if you want to play a "normal" troll who's physically average but smart and sophisticated, it's a major drain second only to shapeshifters and their attribute requirements.

[Apathy]

other negatives based on race:

• Dwarves get a penalty for trying to handle two-handed weapons (polearms and stuff).
• Dwarves and Trolls get a penalty for trying to use weapons that haven't had their handles/triggers adjusted for their smaller size.
• Dwarves get a running modifier penalty.
• Dwarves pay +10% extra for all equipment costs.
• Trolls pay +25% extra for all equipment costs.

Also note that many people consider bonuses to mental stats to be worth more than bonuses to physical stats. The physical stats are usually much cheaper (in terms of both nuyen and essence cost) to modify than the mental ones.

[Ol' Scratch]

I've always wanted to make a dwarf kickboxer/capoeira master just for the novelty of it.

[Tomahawk]