Racial Cost at Creation, Lack of Balance? Options

[DeadNeon]

[Ol' Scratch]

Whoa whoa whoa... those shins are pretty high up there, cowpoke.

[shadd4d]

This gives new meaning to "hitting below the belt".

Don

[Luke Hardison]

[Shev]

[Birdy]

Actually the common races brakedown often seems to be

2 Fays (always Magics)
2 Troggs (always with at least IQ3 so they're also smart)
Maybe 1 Human (often an almost Cyber-Zombie)

And often the problems of the 2.5+ Meter guys are handwaved. I was impressed when I recently got the chance to play with a group that had

1 Ogre (not even an Ork, an Ogre[More costs, lesser abilities])
1 Dwarf
3 Humans

and they played out the racial problems (Dwarf+Normal car => Problem) on their own. There is hope in SR....

The races are actually balanced if you put in all the "fluff" rules (Size, general fear, familie calling on you[1], paranoia[2]) Since they are often overlooked[3] this is not enough (same with Mages), so I'd rather suggest another 5-10 BP for elfes and trolls [and at least an Allergie:Mild (Meat and Iron) for elves. ;-)]


Birdy


[1] How does an Ork form a gang - He's born
[2] Given the three elf nations and their "birth", I'd be a tad paranoid as a state. Gotta watch them revolutzers closely.
[3] Sure you can post "No Trolls wanted" at the bar. Most Troll-Players I met will have their Tumby go to Battle mode and have the group idle while the rollplay. So most GM don't do this. Same for the size of sewers. Seperating the munchkin from the action is bad.

[kevyn668]

[Fygg Nuuton]

it was changed AFAIK

[Birdy]

[Ol' Scratch]

Believeable troll characters (ie, not combat machines with a Charisma and Intelligence of 1) are already a pain in the ass to create. Elves aren't far behind. 10 BP is "just right" for an elf in my opinion, and just a tad expensive for a troll even if my calculations above came out with them having the biggest bang for their buck.

[kevyn668]

Sorry. Forgot to add smileys...

I still don't think I understand. You're saying Elves should cost 15 to 17 BPs? AND have an alergy to Iron...Still not selling me.

I don't care what the mythology is. Most IC perspectives of Metas are geared toward tearing down Tollkien's stereotypes. Trolls aren't all dumb (though it is hard to build a char that isn't). Elves aren't all sissys (I've got a standard elf sam that'll ruin any human sam's day). Dwarves aren't all cave dwelling, tech freaks/sculptors, etc...

So the allergy is out, espeically if they aren't going to come in contact w/ the stuff.

Trolls...having them cost 15 to 20 BPs would effectively hamstring them. All they could be is combat mosters and even then munchkins 'round the globe would howl at the loss of 5 to 10 BPs that could be spent on the Body attribute. OR you plan on forcing all Trolls to be bloodthursty combat monsters. Did I read that right? Impulsive and Bloodlust (don't think that's a flaw. Combat Monster, maybe?)!! Cruel world you play in.

I don't particularly like dwarves but I don't make them suffer any additional penalties (other than "half pint" jokes). Besides, I seem to be in the minority when it comes to dwarves and for that matter, Orks. Though I secretly suspect that some players select a race based on the bonuses it confers...and thus why dwarves and orks are so popular in certain circles.

BTW, I would consider not being able to eat meat torture as well. :)

[Birdy]

[Fygg Nuuton]

i dont think elf characters are too cheap, and i dont think trolls are too cheap.[1]



[1] this joke, however, is cheap. also, it isn't funny. why did i make the joke then? I dunno, why did you? ;)

[Birdy]

[Modesitt]

I really don't get the idea of someone taking Elf solely because it has a lot of bonuses.

Take another look at Doc's analysis. Attribute Bonus is only worth 5 points if you actually use all 5 points worth of it. Meaning, your Quickness and Charisma are both maxed out at 6 points each. Take Joe Street Samurai with a quickness of 6 and a Charisma of 4. He's getting full mileage out of one of the Attribute Bonuses (Quickness), but as for the other two in Charisma, he's effectively 'wasting' 6 build points on Exceptional Attribute and the ability to still take it again. If we assume Doc's on the right track for pricing things, this would mean such an Elf is now at a -2 build points.

You can see a similar thing in the other meta types - I mean, just look at the Combat Mage archtype. He's getting reach, thermographic vision, and 8 attribute points out of being a troll plus a free kick in the nuts with steel toed boots. Try to rebuild that character under Sum-to-10 as a human.

As much as I hate Polaris as a person(This is not the first forum he infested), I'm inclined to agree with him to a degree. If you're not playing a character to whom Charisma is rather important(Face, infiltrator, caster that regularly conjures), you're just wasting perfectly good build points.

[kevyn668]

Where's Polaris? I haven't seen him around here in months...

[BitBasher]

The thing is, it has bonuses right where people some want them.

Besides, it's a real pain to get gear when you have a low cha, since the aquisition of gear is an etiquitte roll. No etiquitte and no cha equals little to no good gear.

[kevyn668]

Ahh, the munchkin in me tells me to say "I don't need charisma, we have a Face. She'll do all the shopping..." :D

We really need a "munchkin" smiley...

But I see where you're going with the att bonuses thing. Hell, I am one of those people. But I don't like to play the occasional elf just cause I can bang out a 5 Charisma sam for the price of 3 BPs (for the record ;))

[BitBasher]

Also, theres a big fat intangible feel of having a character that doesn't die of old age for hundreds of years, that actually does mean somehting to some people.

[Ol' Scratch]

Every point you don't spend on one attribute is a point spent on another attribute. Playing an elf with a Charisma of 3? You only had to pay 1 point for that -- now you have two "free" points to assign to any other attribute of your choosing.

[BitBasher]

I'm pretty sure I've never seen an elf start with a quickness ot cha of less than 5...

[tjn]

I've seen a good number of elves with 3 charisma. Though they're mostly all running with the same basic concept, that of the "grunge" elf. Either they're angsting up the fact that even though they're an elf, they're not one of the "pretty ones," or the outer look is symbolic for who the elf actually is, violent and uncouth, in an attempt to strike directly at the stereotype of the "pretty ones."

This post has been edited by tjn: Aug 3 2004, 12:14 AM

[Ol' Scratch]

[Glyph]

One of the intangibles that the metahumans have is the ability to start out with more than 30 points of Attributes. This is especially good to have for sammies, who need high stats in nearly all of their skills. Orks may have Charisma and Intelligence penalties, but my ork sammies tend to be higher in those skills than a comparable human - because the ork has a net 33 points to spend instead of just 30.

How those points are allocated is another thing. Look at the troll bonuses to Body and Strength - no other metatype can come close to that without cyber, bio, or adept abilities; all of which a troll can use as well. A human simply can't start out with stats like a troll's. Body of 11/12, Strength of 10, +1 reach - trolls are absolutely min-maxed for melee combat, soaking damage, and using heavy weapons (which use Strength as the linked Attribute). They also suffer an intangible disadvantage, though - they often take most of the enemy fire, because they are seen as a bigger threat.

[snowRaven]

Using SURGE effects and Edges & Flaws to 'alter' a human:

Elf: Bad Karma [-5], Pointed Ears [-1], Exceptional Quickness + Bonus Attribute [4], 2x Exceptional Charisma + Bonus Attribute [8], Night Vision [2] = 8 BPs

Ork: Bad Karma [-5], Pointed Ears [-1], Tusks [-1], 3x Exceptional Body + Bonus Attribute [12], 2x Exceptional Strength + Bonus Attribute [8], Night Vision [2], 'Underdeveloped Charisma' [-4], 'Underdeveloped Intelligence' [-4] = 7 BPs

Dwarf: Bad Karma [-5], Pointed Ears [-1], Exceptional Body + Bonus Attribute [4], 2x Exceptional Strength + Bonus Attribute [8], Exceptional Willpower + Bonus Attribute [4], Resistance to Disease 2 [3], Resistance to Toxins 2 [3], Thermographic Vision [2], 'Short' [-6] = 12 BPs

Troll: Bad Karma [-5], Pointed Ears [-1], Tusks [-1], 5x Exceptional Body + Bonus Attribute [20], 4x Exceptional Strength + Bonus Attribute [16], Thermographic Vision [2], 2x 'Underdeveloped Charisma' [-8], 2x 'Underdeveloped Intelligence' [-8], Dermal Deposits [2], 'Big' [2] = 19 BPs

I chose to use the fixed cost of 2 per level for both Exceptional Attribute and Bonus Attribute, and give 'Undeveloped Attribute' the same cost, reversed. Following the trend set by SURGE effects, I guess it would make a bit more sense to increase the cost of each level above the first by 1, at least for Exceptional Attribute. Doing this would make the costs as follows: Elf 9 BPs, Ork 10 BPs, Dwarf 13 BPs, Troll 24 BPs. In either case, quite unbalanced compared to existing values.

'Small' point value is based on the loss of movement multiplier (-4) and the increased cost of gear/penalties (-2).
'Big' point value is based on the bonus reach and benefits (+5) and the increased cost of gear/penalties (-3).

I think no matter how you count, elves get shafted in comparison. Only way to balance this out would be to add modifiers for racism (elves get off easy, dwarves second, then orks and lastly trolls) and life expectancy (elves get the most benefit, dwarves some, trolls a small penalty and orks are penalized big time). Taking this into account, I guess you could balance the numbers to something like Elf 15 BPs, Orks 5 BPs, Dwarves 15 BPs, Trolls 19 BPs.