 Racial Cost at Creation, Lack of Balance? |
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 Aug 4 2004, 12:53 AM
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#76
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 13-July 04 Member No.: 6,475  |
frankly I feel elves should be shafted they're already physically/mentally superior (to humans) although they do have a few flaws (bad karma,racism etc.) they have no penalties .All the other races are better in a few attributes but one or two attributes are always penalized to a degree frankly I'd be perfectly happy with elves being a lower cost but I'd want them to have a -1 to body as I see no reason they should have a body attribute on par with humans. |
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Aug 4 2004, 02:28 AM
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#77
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
They're bigger than we are. It's easy to overlook, because elves are lightly built relative to their height, but they're still a head taller than humans, and more massive in absolute terms. They don't get the hefty Body bonus of orks, which are a head taller than humans and more heavily built, both relatively and absolutely, but they're still big enough that the lack of penalty is reasonable. |
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Aug 4 2004, 03:03 AM
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#78
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Yeah, most people think of elves as short like they are in most other game systems.
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Aug 4 2004, 03:07 AM
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#79
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
If anything I'd put them at Strength -1. That high Quickness comes at a cost and it helps explain their undersized but otherwise healthy and athletic bodies.
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Aug 4 2004, 10:49 AM
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#80
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
I agree with the good Doctor - a penalty to strength would make sense, giving the elven body structure with apparently longer and slimmer muscles.
That said, I like elves the way they are, and I wouldn't want to change their BP cost. The only race I feel is unbalanced for their cost are dwarves, and especially the Koborokuru metavariant. With tons of bonuses, racism and size are the only drawbacks they have, and no matter how I try I can't see why they should suffer as much racism as, say, a red ork with twisted horns, a furry blue elf, a troll with the face of a cow, or a big troll with one eye. The same goes for some of the other 'more normal' metavariants, btw - especially Ogres. |
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Aug 4 2004, 03:26 PM
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#81
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
So let me get this straight: The same person essentially saying "elves get shafted" is now advocating an attribute penalty for elves??!
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Aug 4 2004, 03:37 PM
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#82
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 693 Joined: 26-March 03 Member No.: 4,335 |
Um, so you are saying it's a bad idea to play a sammie who isn't a social cripple? Who may actually be likable? Who actually can get a date? What about your contacts? What about making _new_ contacts? What about talking yourself out of tight spot where guns won't help? What about making a good first impression on someone? What about having freinds and neighbors who care about you? What about getting laid? :D As a player and GM, I like characters with depth and personality. A person with a low charisma in Shadowrun has a weak personality. Hes not just ugly-that's a flaw. He's not just a jerk - that's also a flaw. He's just a nobody, who nobody will listen to or care about. A grey man, leaving little imprint on the world -in the bad sense - the useful aspects of that are an edge. He's a minor irritant of a person, who's existance is of no consequence (At least until, as these people sometimes do, he goes postal in a McDonalds somewhere). He's that guy who hangs on the edge of a social group, not really taking part, and mostly ignored by the rest of the group. He's the guy who will settle for being the 'pack omega' that everyone picks on because it's the only way he can belong. Low Charisma characters get no respect. Sure they might be able to whup somebody, but that just makes them dangerous, not respected. Sort of like a rabid dog. ------------ I followed the link to that huge 'polaris war'. I think years of minmaxing have warped some people's perceptions of what is 'survivable'. I can crunch numbers too, but I do it to make a character fit as closely as I can to a mental concept. The results run over the entire range of combat effectiveness. My ex-lawyer was _not_ a combat machine, but did have his uses. My street ganger didn't know a damn thing about assault rifles, but could boost a car, break kneecaps, and face-down punks. My ex-detective street sam could hold his own in a fight, but was most useful in leg-work. My ex-trid-stunt-man could be nearly unstoppable. The point is, each character is optimised toward being that character, not toward any artificial guideline of 'survivability'. I'm not saying you need to generate retired kindergarten teachers to roleplay properly. That's just stupid. If you have a character concept that could believably be of use in a shadowrun group, then as long as you stay as close as possible to the concept, the numbers will take care of themselves, one way or the other. Some people have trouble with this concept. I wonder how long it will take before the 'Spoiled Runaway Corp College Kid' character in my game will get to use his highest skills (Gunnery[Drones] and Rifle). Hint - I made it quite clear that this was a street-level game. If he's smart and ruthless, he'll eventually get his hands on some drones - but how often does a street punk get his hands on armed milspec combat drones? The best way for him to use those skills is to help the group get a Rep and move up the 'shadows food chain'. Well, that was my rant on the subject. |
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Aug 4 2004, 04:26 PM
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#83
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 409 Joined: 9-March 04 Member No.: 6,140 |
But remember, the elf also lives for three centuries. Good for your long campaigns. :love:
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Aug 4 2004, 04:33 PM
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#84
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 693 Joined: 26-March 03 Member No.: 4,335 |
A little more on topic, I haven't noticed any shortage of folks playing elves in the games I've known. Dwarves are still kind of rare. That whole 'be short and run slow' thing must scare people off. Or else they don't have enough of a 'coolness factor' for most people in SRun.
Humans? -lots of them Orks? A few. Trolls? more than a few. Elves? lots. Dwarves? Seldom. |
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Aug 4 2004, 05:08 PM
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#85
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Depends on the circles you run in. Some teams are comprised entirely of Dwarves according to at least one DSer (not this one).
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Aug 4 2004, 05:38 PM
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#86
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
On the other hand there is raw ability and there is skill. Take Fred Astair and Gene Kelly, two great actors/dancers. One had a huge amount of raw ability (a high attribute, low skillcost) so he could do with less training than most and still be great. The other had to train extremly hard (low attribute, high skillcost) Both are great. Some of the greatest speakers in history where rather bland personalities, even brooding and depressive. They just trained hard. Sure, it does cost buildpoints but you can start out and even life with a low charisma. Actually some characters should have a low attribute there to represent how people react to them initially. Birdy |
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Aug 4 2004, 05:41 PM
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#87
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
And you can do that under the rules. Don't you love it?
~J |
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Aug 4 2004, 05:47 PM
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#88
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 693 Joined: 26-March 03 Member No.: 4,335 |
Yep, actually.
I was seething earlier due to seeing folks taking a low charisma, then getting suprised when folks treat them like they have a low charisma. It's out of my system now. |
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 Aug 4 2004, 06:35 PM
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#89
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
We need a "Toilet" smilie :D Birdy |
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Aug 4 2004, 07:54 PM
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#90
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
The problem with your theory here is that in the minds of many players, if they're starting off with a low Charisma they have no plans on developing or even learning a single Social Skill beyond maybe a token point or two in Etiquette. But I've seen way too many sample characters on this forum that had no Social Skills whatsoever. Not even Etiquette 1. And shock, shock, they practically always had a Charisma of 1, too. |
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Aug 4 2004, 08:08 PM
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#91
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,709 |
The funny thing about Charisma is that a Face doesn't really need it. If you have a lot of high social skills, what good is a charisma of 8 going to do you, really? I can understand the appeal of a character with a high Charisma, but really, it's still the primary dumpstat for anyone but a mage.
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Aug 4 2004, 08:08 PM
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#92
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
So maybe it's me generating thinks like a Charisma-2 character with skills like: Intimidation/Physical 3/5 Etiquette:Gang 2/4 and quite some money in contacts as an ex-ganger turned shadowrunner. Birdy |
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Aug 4 2004, 08:11 PM
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#93
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
It's going to reduce the cost for Etiquette 8. The important level, though, is Charisma 7, as that's the one that gives you another point of TN mod in certain social tests. ~J |
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Aug 4 2004, 08:22 PM
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#94
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Heck yeah, karma costs get substantial since charisma is the linked attribute. karma that's best used elsewhere.
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Aug 4 2004, 10:50 PM
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#95
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 665 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,834 |
I like this thread. Can somebody do a breakdown of Shapeshifters and Ghouls on a point-value basis as well?
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Aug 4 2004, 11:15 PM
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#96
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
I don't think shapeshifters can remotely be compared here, because of the double attribute purchasing and the regeneration, among other less important reasons. Shapeshifters (and ghouls to some degree) just don't work well in normal games.
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Aug 4 2004, 11:48 PM
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#97
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 693 Joined: 26-March 03 Member No.: 4,335 |
I use it for determining people's reactions to a character when he is not actively using a skill to get something. It is a reflection of the person's true personality when he's 'off-camera', and being himself. It's a reflection of how a character gets along with others once they get to know him. Faceman Joe has a CHA of 1, and Ettiquette 6. He goes up to somebody, asks for directions, chats about the weather, and leaves, with the person thinking, 'what a great guy'. Faceman Joe goes home. He finds that his room-mate is holding a party in the con-apt, even though Joe _told_ him that he needed his sleep tonight. And the Landlady is hassling him about his pet turtles again. And his girlfriend has left a message, dumping him because she can't get close to him. His team comes by in the morning, berating him for oversleeping, and sneering at his excuses. "Get in there and smooze that guard, Joe. We'll take care of the job while he's distracted. And the bar tab tonight is yours." Walter Mitty. Arnold Rimmer. The faceless, ignored little men who inspired the phrase, 'going postal'. That wimp who was locking up women in his basement and beating them, because that was the only way he could enjoy any power in a relationship. Possibly good skills, no strength of personality. One of those people who folks try to push around because they never push back, in a social sense. They aren't neccesarily easy to push around (could have a high WIL), but they don't project any strength in their relationships. They can be charming, insightful, stubborn, or crude. Makes no difference. You probably know this person in your peer group. I know I do. They are very common, but you don't think about them, because they do not loom large in your mind. Perhaps at some point in your life you _were_ them. Perhaps you still are. Perhaps I was. Online, it's impossible to say. It's a very sad state to see. Being a 98-pound weakling vs spirits is just the icing on the cake (or in this case, the creampuff). I am, of course, describing the extreme - the 1 Charisma character. |
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Aug 5 2004, 12:00 AM
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#98
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 476 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Fresno, CFS: taking out one durned furriner at a time. Member No.: 5,940 |
Err, Moonstone? Ghouls. You even posted to the thread yourself :P
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Aug 5 2004, 06:43 AM
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#99
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
In addition to giving you a TN bonus for certain social skill tests, and being the linked Attribute for improving social skills, a high Charisma is useful in one more way. You roll a Charisma test to offset NPC racism.
Maybe that's why elves seem to suffer less racism. An NPC may be as likely to hate elves as he is to hate trolls, but an elf has an average Charisma of 5, while that troll has an average Charisma of 1. Who is more likely to roll more successes on the test to offset that NPC's racism? That's why elves usually wind up facing milder, subtler forms of racism. |
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Aug 6 2004, 12:39 AM
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#100
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
Yes! :grinbig: But with a minus 1 to Strength, I'd make elves cost 5 BPs in a heartbeat! However, that would also make them have a net total of 2 'bonus' attrubte points - too low compared to other races who have a minimum of 3 or 4 (some metavariant has more I think) But as I said, I like elves the way they are, at the cost they are at. For a strict number cruncher, they are the 'worst' buy for race (excluding shapeshifters, and possibly NightOnes, Wakyambi and Nymphs), but they do have their benefits regardless. But I still think dwarves and their variants rule! :elims: |
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