A voice raised in protest., I disagree with what was posted... |
A voice raised in protest., I disagree with what was posted... |
Aug 2 2004, 07:39 AM
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#1
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 |
Forgive me for this is long. This is addressed primarily to Skeptical Clown for now. I am posting this because I disagree with some of things you’ve been posting around here. I in no way represent the Admins or forum in any way shape or form. Some of what you’ve had to say, and Crimson dude 2.0, has been very poignant, and I agree with it very much. This thread however is dedicated to what I disagree with. (Sorry if it seems negative.)
That’s so absurd I don’t even know where to begin with it. First off this is overly simplistic, which is a theme I am getting from you. Governments do not exist simply to better the interests of society. Maybe in some philosophy class, or some ideal scenario-but if that were the case then the overwhelming corruption and self centered, greed and avarice of a number of current world governments would come directly into conflict with that statement. But getting back to the game world, what I sense here is you see the UCAS and similar style governments as the good guys’ right? Democratic republics=good. Theocracies=not so bad. Communism/Dictators=bad. Is this how it is your game world? In my own the various governments of the world aren’t so cut and dry. Like real, modern day governments they sometimes have the need for deniable assets to perform a wide variety of functions.
This is donkey and carrot linear logic. You’ve determined who is bad and who is good, and you’re determined to stick with it.
Why? Not always. No. The act of governing is criminal. All are valid answers. So is controlling crime. Do you see what I mean?
That’s absurd. From one available perspective in the game, which has MANY available perspectives (Didn’t buy Missions?), you can view all authority as “bad”. (Again with the clearly defined lines of good and evil, you would seem to be a person who’d be more comfortable with an alignment system.)
None of my current players are playing Heroes in any sense of the word. In fact one is a serial killer. Are they then, by your admittedly limited definitions not Shadowrunners? They perform criminal actions for monetary compensation. Isn’t that what a Shadowrunner does?
That’s horribly limiting. Forgive me saying that I feel you limit your games immensely with this attitude.
That’s not true. From the very beginning they were detailed, and for the space they had available in great detail. (Especially when compared to similar gaming systems introduced at the time.) from the beginning you received a political map of NA, and mention of Seattle’s government. In fact the Street Samurai’s Catalog introduced in ’89 contained a number of references to various governments, and the Seattle Sourcebook which followed shortly thereafter devoted pages and pages to not only comments on the government, but an actual section on it. From the beginning of Shadowrun the Governments had an integral role in the balkanized world of Shadowrun.
WRONG. If you have read the NeoAnarchists Guide to North America you’d know that Seattle, and some major Metroplexes make heavy use of contracted security providers, but for instance Washington D.C. has a major Federal Police presence. Most small towns still use traditional policing methods.(Why would Lone Star or Knight errant take every Podunk contract that came along? In fact they’d gravitate towards lucrative contracts that had relatively low risk and high payouts.)
And in some cases that’s true. By limiting yourself to that definition, you’re really putting a limit on how far your game can go.
And as the game world progresses we find that’s not quite entirely true. That in fact power is a delicate thing, constantly shifting and fluctuating. To me it adds a layer of depth I can use if I choose to.
This was never true.
So are women, children and tricycles. Not all of which have morals either. So that makes them fair targets right? It sounds to me like you’ve watched Boondock Saints one too many times. Dude there really is more to gaming than just that.
This is true of a number of things-it doesn’t mean they don’t happen. In fact life has proven the opposite to be true. You’re also assuming that in this balkanized future that a number of things happen: Information is shared freely, the police always outpace criminals (Which is patently false, working in law Enforcement I can say for sure that there will always be someone out there finding new and innovative ways to break the laws.) Hell it even assumes the always stay apace with the crimes, and criminals. Which may or may not be true at any given time.
I’m not so sure you really do see, but I agree it is your right to disagree, and post said disagreement. It is also my right to disagree with you, your logic, or lack of, and post that too.
And they are the French. You’ve really said nothing here.
Apparently I missed the meme on this one. In no book does it require you to use said events. These events like real life events occur-perhaps in the background if you are a gutterpunk street kid. Or maybe its your everyday life you’re character is a diplomat for the Tir. Or maybe the events directly effect the business your character gets. While in some books some characters may be thrust out into the limelight, this doesn’t mean the shadow community as a whole suddenly stops existing, or goes legit, or whatever. You’re limiting what happens in your game again. These events provide inspiration for your game world. A realistic (Or as close as it gets in a fictional game…) backdrop for the events in your game.
I do.
Look, I am trying to be nice here, but are you blind? When Richard Villiers decides he wants to take a bath there could be a run in that for me. His every whim is backed up by the power of a Multinational multibillion nuyen corporation that will do whatever he wants. Apparently you don’t understand what plot hooks are.
Apparently. Well good for you! In my game a player with your attitude would rapidly find himself in a lot of trouble. Taking the “I put a plastic trash bag over my head and dance in traffic” routine will get you killed. But again if you choose to not use a tool available to you as a Game Master, then it’s your decision. No matter how much I feel sorry for you or more appropriately your players, you can do this and make it work. The game system is that versatile.
Wait. Just a minute ago it was nothing. Which is it?
Well good for you. In my game we will have fun and use every resource available to us, and experiment with various plot hooks as we see fit.
So speak with your wallet and stop buying these horrible products. I don’t buy stuff I don’t like. For instance I don’t own a single White Wolf book, or more than one D&D book.
The more I read your posts, the surer I am that you have no idea what you’re talking about. I am also incredibly sure that even if you paid for my gas to wherever, my lodging, bought me dinner and worshipped me I wouldn’t play in your game.
Don’t they have a forum?
:lol That’s a joke right? “Well yeah the game started out this way, but it should never move forward. 1989 forever dude!”
Well yeah.
Ah but the players are clearly there, as evidenced by the sales figures we sometimes hear about.
You are correct. What Lofwyr does is only one part of the gaming world. I’m sorry you can’t seem to make it past that. My game rarely revolves around anything remotely to do with Lofwyr, and I own all the books. Some in triplicate or more.
I completely disagree with your logic.
I’ll agree those books were good products, well worth my dollar at the time. I do not however live in the past. It is not 1992 anymore. The Sprawl Survival Guide provides a healthy update, and in my opinion a move in the right direction for the game.
I agree. I frequently check one of my many copies of it.
Very correct. So the difficulty becomes how does one reconcile a game about the not so distant future, with a rapidly evolving real world that sometimes outpaces the game world? When you have the answer to that question, let me know. I’d very interested.
I should hope that’s not anyone’s goal.
No.
Out of line? No. Absurd? Often. Spurious? Frequently. Ill mannered? Almost certainly. But certainly no more so than any of us have been from time to time.
Which is certainly your right,. Please realize the terms of usage do not require me to agree with you.
Your definition of what a game is truly limited.
Okay.
By thematics I assume you mean the overall theme of the game, in which I will happily disagree with you. If you mean the game is evolved, and has slowly become much more than it was in 1989 with entire swaths of sometimes cool, and sometimes not so cool material to draw upon, then okay.
The cause isn’t important at all. Only the effect. Paul shakes his head….
So when you picked this book up that’s what you expected? You didn’t, say, go to the official web page and scan the description? Or maybe when you bought it you didn’t scan through it all first? (Assuming you didn’t just mail order it, of course.)
I think intelligent criticism is important. |
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Aug 2 2004, 07:41 AM
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#2
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 |
Just to clarify: I mentioned Crimsondude2.0. I have some post of yours I would like to reply to as well. Due to length they will be in a seperate post.
All corrections made to Skeptical Clowns grammar and spelling were my own. I chose not to highlight them, but for clarity's sake, know that any differences are my own, and made with the best intentions in mind. |
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Aug 2 2004, 08:24 AM
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 |
I am having some trouble with one piece of text you posted, which was an excerpt from another post, which basically explained your view on the world of Shadowrun. Forgive me, but my Office 97 skills are weak. So until I have a good friend of mine tweak it so I can use it, it will have to wait, and these will have to do. (The remainders as it were.]
So updates aren’t welcomed?
Which is a personal choice. Certainly not one that is necessarily representative of every player.
I think that’s good. I think we should all expect the best for our dollar. However, do keep in mind that your dollar and my dollar might not be spent in the same spot.
I understand this. I have a special hatred for New Seattle that is completely unreasonable-bordering on insanity.
I am not sure I follow you here. Is this correct: A book that reprints given information poorly isn’t a good sourcebook? I can agree with that heartily. I just don’t know if that’s what you mean to say.
Some very valid points there. I guess my own answer would be how many players demand a game set in PCC? Not to devalue your game-and I don’t really know the answer to what follows here-but how many people use a setting outside Seattle on a regular basis? I’ll assume a lot of Euro’s do. We do. (As in my group.) You do. A lot of people here at DSF have at one time or another-but I wonder do we represent the fan at large? I honestly don’t know. I submit that if you want more PCC demand more! (Which in part I recognize you are doing.)
Well keep in mind two things. First at the front of every OOP book there’s a blurb about you as the Game Master having to make the decision about which comments are relevant, valid and real. Second-like in real life people find out stuff. Some people know. Some people think they know. Ever browse the lounge when it was a working forum here? Or Bulldrek? Sometimes people post things to irritate others, or even blatant lies. Heck I know people who post for obscenities sake-why would 206x be any different?
Now see, I hate the adventures almost completely. (There are some notable exceptions…) I prefer a much free from game, with fewer path tree style decisions. But I see what you mean by player driven games. I however see no reason why the players can’t drive events, even major events. Like Skeptical Clown, I think you are putting limits on where your game can go. My own game knows none of these restraints. I go where my players want me to take them. If they demand Arcology-they get it. If they want nothing but sadomasochistic sexual intrigue and murder-they get it. It’s our game. We make it ours. We use it-not the other way around.
Then I don’t see what your problem is.
Apparently your players don’t know the difference between IC and OOC knowledge? Dude, you’re the GM, limit their flow of information IN GAME. Sure Bug City was meant as e-text shadow document. Take a highlighter to it, and highlight off limit posts. Or don’t even let them read it. Or let them read it, and then say “Your characters don’t know any of this.” Then make them do the legwork and gain information, which you as the GM control. Make them play their characters. Would their character believe in Bug Spirits with out seeing them? There are so many tools you two seem unable, or unwilling to utilize.
Not up to the challenge? :D Seriously though I understand your complaint here-but I just can’t seem to come to terms with needing or wanting to run the pregenerated adventures. Is that all you run? For the record I had to correct almost none of your spelling and grammar, and my own sixteen times in the Spell checker! :D |
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Aug 2 2004, 08:46 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 223 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,067 |
Okay, I want to throw my two cents in here. I don't post around here often, because honestly, not many posts around here suit my tastes for the game. I'm not a number cruncher; rather, I'm a writer and a student of history and philosophy. Let me explain why Shadowrun is my favorite RP game:
If I wished, I don't need to see a blasted single Shadowrunner for an entire campaign and the game is still durned fun. You know what makes Tolkien's books so fun? For every move Frodo or Aragorn makes, there is 2-3 millenia of actions (if you wanna think third age only) of actions, traditions, politics, decisions, intruige, romance, and battle behind it, weighing on them. For every step through a ruins, there is a reason for them being there, a people that used them, and a cause for their falling into miasma. This was the magic of Tolkien: Before he wrote The Lord of the Rings, he spent 20 years writing the backstory of the world. Nothing was in specific unless it was important, but everything interconnected... And in the end, the story he chose to tell uses that information to craft the story he wanted. But as much as it pains me to admit it, very few people are going to approach the singular effort that Tolkien accomplished in his years of life. Even the movies took a team of 3 to even visualize what he wrote, and that's only if you count the writers (just as much credit goes to Alan Howe and company, Howard Shore and company, and Richard Taylor and company). Plus, those people dedicated their lives for 7 years to the work. We play this game as a hobby, something to entertain ourselves with. Enter the sourcebook. Compiled over the time of a couple years from conception to print (yes, I don't care what company it is, if any RP book is written in less than, say, a half a year from conception to publish, then something's off), you have there a guide. You have a ready-made wealthof information to use as you see fit. That's all a sourcebook is, really. One may focus on political intruige, while another focuses on landmarks. A third might talk about things that are yet to come (a certain Will comes to mind). This is what seperates a sourcebook from an adventure: In an adventure, the interpretation has been done for you -- save for the track-style shadowrun book, all the information on how the scenarios should go is in a printed format, and all the GM has to do is follow along. is it no wonder that they are the poorest selling books for any RPG? So then there is the matter of detail. Again: How much do you want handed to you? Let's examine the situation: From Encyclopedia.com, the land mass of Europe alone is about 10,360,000 square kilometers, or 4,000,000 square miles. Yes, that's a million. And believe it or not, but Europe is the 6th smallest continent. So tell me: Would you like every location detailed in a 216 page book? What's more, would you want to torture someone by having them write it? And even more: Would you like to pidgeonhole any future writers for this game to double-check that book every time they wanted to write an adventure or sourcebook plot hook? I want to expand on that last post, as it is the foundation of a lot of how role-playing books are written in the modern day. See, as RPG's get bigger and harder to make, the background checking alone is massive. Shadowrun is doubly handicapped, for it not only has to check itself, but it must also check the writings of an entirely seperate game, made by a different company with a different agenda. This isn't easy... And the more detail you get, the harder it becomes. It 's one (but not the only) reason why you rarely see pictures of some of the more common elements of the game -- if one creates the "definitive" Ares predator, or the "definitive" Richard Villers, or the "definitive" dragon, then all future writers and artists must stick to that. As there are very few complete and trustworthy databases of every reference made in a Shadowrun book, that is not a wise idea. And to think: I haven't even touched the idea of good vs. evil and black and white in Shadowrun. I don't think I will -- it is late, and I need to get out of this quickly. I will say this, however: It should be noted that no government is static, and that includes governing bodys of megacorps. For instance, France's current world views and their seeming to have a social inferiority conplex can be traced to many factors, but it cannot be traced back past the 1800's, when the government was overthrown by the people and was remolded by a ton of different factors (Napoleon notwithstanding, although he had his part as well). If anything, I dislike early Shadowrun simply because things are too static and black and white -- I thoroughly enjoyed the events of Dunk's Will through Blood in the Boardroom and up to Corporate Download, and watching a megacorp tear itself apart and seeing what that did to the world. In the same vein, I'm salivating to learn everything I can about the Yucatan conflict, and see how the new CAS backbone is helping them, and watching Ghostwalker play Aztlan and the CAS like a fiddle. Is Ghostwalker evil? Who cares? Hell -- there are even quite a few things about Aztlan that I like, and they definitely ARE defined as the uber-villains of Shadowrun. As I mentioned before, Shadowrun can be played without seeing a single Shadowrunner for ages. Why? well, for one, there is enough information out there to do it. To be honest, I still want to run a campaign populated by a group of humans trying to survive down in the deep research platform described in Target: Wastleands -- that one populated with vampires? Or pehraps a campaign of mercs in the desert wars, or the yucatan conflict.. Or heck, for a little exotic spice, I could go a bit of Cowboy bebop and have some people flitting around up on the zero-G casino or the Daedelus platform -- there's a whole nother world up there that's only been hinted at so far. However, if that is too far from the Shadowrunning concept for you, might I mention something else: Sometimes Corps don't want to do "denyable" things... Soemtimes they want the world to know what they did, or at least their enemies. ;) Corporate hit-men are a common element to Shadowrun, albeit usually as Shadowrunner's opposition... Well, picture playing as the best of the best for a bit, and see what that does to one's game. To digress a bit: I saw Ocean's Eleven (George Clooney version) a couple days ago for the first time. You know what was amazing? Due to the movie's glitzy, super-tech version of things, as well as the stuff I'd learned from Shadowrun, I knew a good chunk of how they were planning on doing things, as well as -how- to pull off that bank robbery in Shadowrun -- and how to stop it, where the critical failures were. ;) Yet that made it all the more fun for me -- I got to enjoy the pacing, but I also got to put my mind through all these excerises of if such things would work, and how to tweak it both for victory and defeat. It really is cool, because the "good guys" in this case were probably more intellegent than 80% of all Shadowrunners I've ever read about.. and yet even they made mistakes... Back on subject, just as a parting thought: Open up the Underworld Sourcebook sometime... And tell me if the contents are good or evil. Because Organized Crime is probably the hardest question to answer there. It is obviously a lifestyle of greed, but at the same time the Mafia, Yakuza, Triads, and (in Shadowrun) Seloupa rings all provide things to the common man that the government cannot, or will not. Not only that, but it is the epitome of a family business, and usually upholds values of honor and morality that are leap years beyond what you would find in the average man, let alone government officials. Yet many would consider them Evil... It is honestly the best expression of what makes Shadowrun great in the end: It is your game, to play with as you wish. The sourcebooks are there for all -- it is your job to use them, or not.. And by providing you that choice, as all RPG's provide you that choice, it sets itself apart from every other form of entertainment in the world. Athenor |
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Aug 2 2004, 09:57 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 498 Joined: 31-May 02 From: All the way in the Back to the Left. Member No.: 2,800 |
:notworthy:
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Aug 2 2004, 10:34 AM
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#6
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Target Group: Members Posts: 57 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,877 |
I pretty much agree with a lot of what Skeptical Clown wrote. My players don't want to know about behind the scenes machinations, and it doesn't help our games to include much at all. They become frozen by paranoia. If someone likes to play that way, fine. But with the brainpower I saved on working out a bunch of corporate plot and counterplotting that only marginally affects the run, I will be thinking of how to convey atmosphere in the game, and some interesting personalities for my players to interact with and other things that suit our style of play.
I haven't seen SoE, but from the sound of it, I don't think it's the kind of book that appeals to me. Give me one detail and I can hang an adventure on it. A broad overview generally doesn't inspire me. That's just the way my brain works, I think. I am so gonna run Richard Villiers Takes a Bath now, though. And, well, I don't agree with SC on government. But with anti-authoritarian stuff, s/he is describing a style of game with a strong theme and specific atmosphere, and if that's the style that that group likes to play then there's nothing wrong with that at all. Maybe it's limited, or maybe it's just focussed. It's like calling Star Wars limited because it's not Dead Man Walking. Oh, and LotR is not a great book because of the detailed background history, although that is cool. It's a great book because it has a strong spiritual dimension. IMO, of course. |
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Aug 2 2004, 10:51 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 498 Joined: 31-May 02 From: All the way in the Back to the Left. Member No.: 2,800 |
But the background stuff helps the GM, for at least themselves, see what spawns the runs and can help them build a consistant world. The players need not know any of this unless they want to. The books help give them a starting point to use if they choose to build their world. Not everyone is uber creative or sneaky and it lets them see how the world works and many different ways that runners are used.
It also gives players ideas to use. Not evryone runner is former miltary, Lonestar or gutter punk who grew out of his small pond. They have to come from somewhere and run for some reason. And the hooks that give GMs idea for runs can give players ideas to motivate their characters development from just some slob into a carrer criminal. I also don't see anyone forcing anyone to buy the new books or how they don't fit into the 'SR' theme, Surge withstanding. ;) But I do see what they were trying to do with it. |
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Aug 2 2004, 01:49 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 541 Joined: 2-August 04 From: South Africa Member No.: 6,531 |
Well it can all be settled very easily. Genre for one GM and another are different. It would be easy enough to look at who follows the Shadow Stories and who plays in the Shadows of the Shadow Stories.
There are people out there who I was once like, I followed the stories I played in line of the happenings, I set my Games around the world of the Multi corps the Politicians and police. But I also Play the Runners who work the lower escilons of the world. Each to his own. There are people out there who it is there idea of living the Sr Genre and there are those who or 1 time runners and they don't care. I played a baddy once. I enjoyed it. It had nothing to do with Time line Genre. I was a fugitive. I escaped from prison and that how my life started. Always running from the Law, running in the shadows of the shadow runners. All in all it is your GM who makes the senario in genre. You will find some Shadow types will have enough arsonal for Dragon hunting. Try that in my campaign and see what happens. I have seen Troll Merc deficate in there pants by the mere precence of a Angry Dragon. Genre look at what your world is like in a Game enviroment. Try not to relate to the real world.. Pls Excuse my Grammer and Spelling. I am not yet Old and Wise |
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Aug 2 2004, 02:44 PM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 88 Joined: 13-January 04 Member No.: 5,975 |
GMing shadowrun is by far the hardest and most taxing game to run in most of the genre. And i have to agree that it doesn't help if people don't have a good grasp of the SR world and World events. I have a player who is a former Steel Wolves ganger from LA. After being displaced from her "hood", the recent events in YotC are very relevant to her character. Telling her PC that they are going to LA will inspire completely different images if she doesn't fully understand and feel what has and is happening in the SR world.
To help Players who don't keep up as well, i try to show side effects of major world events. yucatan Refugees, SURGE stories, Corp Stock that can change with events. These kind of things make the events seem more real. It is paramount having to pay more for Oil in the US because people are striking in venezuela. |
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Aug 2 2004, 05:18 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 424 Joined: 11-May 02 From: Marauding the mighty North Saskatchewan Member No.: 2,720 |
Here's my two cents: Play Shadowrun, Have fun. ;)
Paul you're way too serious. :D |
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Aug 2 2004, 05:25 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 12-April 04 From: Lacey, Washington Member No.: 6,237 |
Paul, I love it when people start sentence with WRONG. It's so witty and mature.
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Aug 2 2004, 05:48 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 348 Joined: 20-June 03 Member No.: 4,782 |
I think Ispahn72 is on to something. Its not what you know about the shadowrun world that makes you a good GM, It's how you describe the world to your players. Instead of a history lesson (which is boring for me) I enjoy hearing a trid report or accidently intercepting a radio news broadcast of recent events as i adjust my signal on my transciever. Keeping the game in character is fun for everyone.
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Aug 2 2004, 05:59 PM
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#13
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
:please: |
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Aug 2 2004, 06:07 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 400 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 825 |
Too bad he only did it once. It could have been much more entertaining for you. |
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Aug 2 2004, 06:18 PM
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#15
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Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
I agree 100%, Buzzed. But, to some extent, the history has to be available to the players. I often did things like... "You're flipping through the channels, waiting for you fixer to call about those super cherry sweetez you asked him to get for you. You're in the middle of some show on channel 346 on the dissolution of the Danube Union when..."
That allows the player to ask if they want more info. If they don't, they don't have to, and yet they still have some idea that there was something called the Danube Union, so if it comes up two adventures down the road, they'll at least have some sort of reference point. And it immerses them in the game world more. |
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Aug 2 2004, 06:19 PM
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#16
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Senior GM Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12-April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442 |
I'm 49 years old, and constantly remind myself that people of all ages post on dumpshock. I try not to criticize someone that still has a simple view of governments, politicians, and/or police. We ALL came from having simple views, and those views become more complex over time. There is nothing wrong with still having a simple view -- it is only a place to grow from.
I am enriched by observing my son's views of the world grow and mature. He first played Shadowrun at age 8 or 9, and he's now 15. His understanding of the real world has grown dramatically, and so has his ability to appreciate the intricacy that can be in Shadowrun organizations and NPCs. Posts which enrich other people's understanding of Shadowrun and the real world are good. Posts which only criticize someone for still having a simple view are not beneficial. Paul, you have aspects of both, but it is presented almost exclusively as criticism. |
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Aug 2 2004, 07:39 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 153 Joined: 1-April 04 Member No.: 6,211 |
Isn't this dangerously close to flaming? Starting a topic, simply so you can condemn another poster's comments and deride his world view? Skeptical isn't the only one around here that may have those thoughts. Dragging it out, in public, in its own topic, seems to be asking for trouble.
I especially liked the part about paying for dinner, travel and then worship trying to get you involved in a game, Paul, just so you can no. God, my world just might fall apart if my views don't agree with yours and you would so seriously *harrumph* my game. |
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Aug 2 2004, 07:58 PM
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#18
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
All I'll say is if by detail you mean the names of specific Parisian gangs or the descriptions of nightclubs Berlin anarchists hang out, then SoE is not the book for you (just like SoNA won't have been). If on the other hand by details you mean "there's a guy running around the British countryside carrying something which might be Exalibur" or "a mob princess restores her syndicate to glory after a devastating Mafia feud by making a pact with sinister forces" or "someone just offed a drake on Professor Schwartzkopf's doorstep" or "a Jewish crime syndicate is challenging the gypsy/Vory alliance in the talislegging trade from Easter Europe" then you just might be pleasantly surprised. |
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Aug 2 2004, 08:12 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,709 |
If you want to address my opinions, do so in threads where it's a relevant discussion. There are already several of them. And if you have a problem that has to be directed to me specifically for some reason, send a PM. I'm not going to respond to this kind of trash.
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Aug 2 2004, 10:54 PM
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#20
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 |
The threads in question actually have little to do with your opinions, which is why I started this thread, which by the way isn't exclusively devoted to just you. Sorry if thats not flattering. I posted this as a way avoiding cluttering those threads. I don't expect you to reply, and I'm not much bothered if you don't. I presented my opinions, you've obviously read them-thats more than enough for me. That some people even agree, is more than I could ask for. That some disagree is to be expected.
Perhaps-but its certainly not my intent. I guess I am hoping that the members of the community are able to challenge themselves, their opinions and be able to discuss them freely. (The past has certainly proven this almost certainly not true about DSF as a whole.) If you feel this thread is out of order you are welcome of course to contact a Forum administrator, and say such.
I don't, of course, agree with you. But I'm not particularly worried about the tone. We all have our own way fo doing things. Mine does not include being superficially nice.
Heh. Serious Paul strikes again! :) |
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Aug 2 2004, 11:18 PM
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#21
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 |
And I should say this is one valid way of running a game. Despite my own preferences I do recognize that my own style is not the end all of SR games. Each player,e ach Game Master, each group has their own style. I may not always enjoy some of these-but they are all valid, and none are incorrect.
Which I know you realize is a choice you make. Not that i see anything wrong with Street Level campaigns, as I hope is evidenced by the game you are currently playing in.
Which is very cool. We all aspire to do similar, regardless of "power level" or setting.
My work here has paid off. If I manage to inspire one person to make a run, I consider what I have posted a success. |
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Aug 2 2004, 11:23 PM
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#22
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 |
This a very valid point. We take for granted a lot of times what sort of people play the game. Look at OurTeam for example. At 49 he is likely to not only have far more experience than me (Not just in game experience, but real life experience as well.) but he may well have a vastly superior education than your avergae 14 to 21 year old. His game is almost certainly several steps above the average game in some respects. This is not to say that younger players are poor players, or somehow less. I've known some amazing players at all ages. But all of us at times need stuff that inspires us. Crimsondude2.0 sounds like the type of Game Master who can wing a game pretty easily-he has a vivid imagination, he is articulate, and seems unafraid to present his opinions. But is he the norm? |
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Aug 3 2004, 12:54 AM
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#23
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Target Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 150 |
I havent' read all of Paul's post, so I'll just throw a few things in;
1) SR is capable of many varied settings (SR Companion, Cyberpirates, Missions, Hooker Carving Crow Shamans), but it has a default setting. Seattle Shadowrunners. 2) Information can be Wrong, opinions... not so much. 3) A Voice Raised In Protest isn't a very informative title. Perhaps "Calling out Skeptical Clown" or... "Shadowrun and strong government" or something. |
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Aug 3 2004, 07:18 PM
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#24
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Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Los Angeles Member No.: 1,719 |
I have to agree with some of what Paul posted, and some of what Skeptical Clown posted. I think that both of you have some valid points, and seeing the discussion of what you disagree with helps crystalize alot of readers on the subject matter.
If you ever watch the news, whenever they have commentators, they always pick two with diametrically opposed viewpoints. This is because the more you disagree, the greater the difference in opinion and obesrvations you will offer to the viewers. The same is happening here. I think I have to side a little more with Paul. I like a game that's varied and can have characters that may not actually be shadowrunners. In addition, my namesake shadowrunner has gotten to the point where he carefully follows the news of the world at large to track down lucrative 'jobs' or shadowruns. In the games I run, I try to get the characters to find their own work. We don't have the 'typical' Johnson calling your fixer calling you with work. It happens from time to time, but I'm just as psyched when one of the players decides he has to steal the new prototype racecar from Mitsuzuki for his own use and the team goes along with it. While my plot tends to be player driven, the larger issues of the world certainly factor into it. I appreciate having sourcebooks like SoNA & SoE because they give me a consistant background to plug my own imaginings into. Since I game online in IRC under many different GMs, having that consistant background is very necessary to take a character from one GM's game to another. |
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Aug 3 2004, 10:01 PM
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#25
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 |
You know in another forum I mentioned this thread, actually in several hoping to spur conversation, but anyways in Bulldrek I mentioned something and DV8 asked a pretty good question which was basically "Well why didn't you say that initially?" The reason is of course I didn't think of it until I had posted it, and by then had put quite a bit of time and thought into it. But Macavity summed up what I was thinking of when I posted this way better than I ever could have hoped to:
Dude thanks. I am glad smart people set me straight every so often! :) All joking aside, I really do appreciate this. You have enabled me to put this in perspective much better. |
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